XP Fixes Myth #1: Registry Cleaners

Hee, hee, hee

Arie you crack me up! You funny, you funny!

Mike

 

Ok seriously

Mark Russinovich is a master programmer is an expert in the windows OS.

I admire and respect him highly but he is not GOD!

And I expect he spends his days the last few years on management and esoteric issiues.

I on the other hand spend my days with 48 clients in 4 states with 55 servers (some have Terminal Servers also) there are 878 work stations under my care.

So I know a little also. Been doing this for 27 years.

In the past I have had almost every certification out there including Novell. Actually would you believe even, many many years ago Novell for DOS.

A few years ago I quit taking the recerts because I don't need them to get a job any longer and I just don't have the time.

I program in several languages including Assembly. Used to could do binary math in my head. Geeze!

By the way just got a PM a day or so ago stating that since I had a long absence on the board that I was out of touch with modern spy/adware and diagnostic procedures. Assuming that since I was gone from the BBS that I was gone from the industy. I left the BBS for a while because my workload and other personal reasons but not this work. It made my day and gave me a big laugh.

A short illustration of what I have to do "to much of" for my clients. Some of the employees seem to have all day to play on the internet.

A few months ago I received a request to get someone back connected to the network and Internet.

To make a long story short:

spent 1 hr talking user thru cleanup using programs that I sent to the server and burned to CD just get computer up an connected again

When I did connect via RDP

cleaned 1.9g of temps

including what I talked the user thru before I connected 680 some spyware infections as found by Xclean_micro Spybot Adaware and a couple more cleaners

40 some different Viri That had infected 1200+ files

And finally (Oh No!) using multiple different Registry cleaners 15,000+
bad registry items.

At the end of the day computer was back up running great after a final XP repair install just to make sure. Data was lost but surprisingly little and nothing super critical.

15,000 bad registry issues. Does anyone here think that that did not effect this computer in multiple ways.

Mark Russinovich is correct that a pass thru a normal registry hardly slows a computer but the following scenario will :

Windows is passing thru the registry! It hits a bad registry entry, now it is off on a tangent trying to find the file or other registry value, that could also be bad, so off we go again.

At some point to give up and pass on thru. You don't think that happens?

Interested in some Seaside resort property in Nevada?

Nuff said.

Mike

 

What OS process does a registry pass-thru?
And if Windows did such a thing, which it does not, how does it help any to have a missing entry?

 

Jeeze!

Now we are saying windows does not address the registy. Who said that? Steve Jobs?

You crack me up! You funnie funny!

Mike

 

@Arie:

It only scans the OS entries and Microsoft Office entries. It is a very good question as it was found to break OE, IE 7 and Microsoft Word in its earlier releases. The intention was not to regularly clean but to regularly check that entries for the OS and Office were sound. It does not look like either the Registry Cleaner or Firewall will be kept in Live OneCare. Both products have generated a great deal of antipathy in the Microsoft community.

They should have learned with RegClean, an unreleased product that still can be found on the Web. It was pulled when, among other things, it was found to break the following applications at the time it was removed from Windows Download:

• Microsoft Office XP (Setup)
• Microsoft Office Standard Edition 2003
• Microsoft Office Small Business Edition 2003
• Microsoft Office Access 2003
• Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003
• Microsoft Office PowerPoint 2003
• Microsoft Office Word 2003
• Microsoft Office Professional Edition 2003
• Microsoft Office Student and Teacher Edition 2003
• Microsoft Office Basic Edition 2003
• Microsoft Office Excel 2003
• Microsoft Office Outlook 2003
• Microsoft Office Publisher 2003
• Microsoft Office 2000 Premium Edition
• Microsoft Office 2000 Professional Edition
• Microsoft Office 2000 Standard Edition
• Microsoft Office 2000 Small Business Edition
• Microsoft Office 2000 Developer Edition
• Microsoft Access 2002 Standard Edition
• Microsoft Excel 2000 Standard Edition
• Microsoft FrontPage 2000 Standard Edition
• Microsoft Outlook 2000 Standard Edition
• Microsoft PowerPoint 2000 Standard Edition
• Microsoft Word 2000 Standard Edition

Fred Langa started with a standard PC, imaged it, and ran 10 registry cleaners. He ran each three times on an image:

Highest number of items that needed to be "fixed ": 800
Lowest number of items found to be "fixed ": 59

Does not this suggest that what needs to be fixed is not at all certain? The other question it invites is it not possible that those generating a large number of entries are trying to sell snake oil? See this small discussion that prompted Langa to test:

I cite the article so that you can read it in full: http://www.informationweek.com/LP/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=171203805&pgno=1&queryText=

But back to Mr. Langa's testing. One reason for testing each cleaner three times was as a credibility check. If you run the same cleaner three times consecutively, it would be a fair assumption that the results should be nearly identical each time. It would be hard to make a credible case for using a product that changed its mind about what was a registry entry to be cleaned if run three times as a test. As Fred explains:

• JV16 PowerTools 1.3.0.195: I included the last free version of this highly regarded tool -- from 2003 -- because so many of you will be familiar with it. As such, it can be a kind of touchstone you can use for context in comparing newer tools. When run on my test system, it identified 307 problematic items in the Registry, 122 of which it deemed "safe to remove."
• JV16 Powertools 2005: On our test system the PowerTools 2005 Registry Cleaner's "aggressive" setting dug far deeper than its simpler, earlier cousin (above), finding and removing a total of 800 problem items, including 53 "highest" level problems, 691 "moderate" problems, and 56 "low-level" problems. This one proved a Fred Langa favorite. The results were repeatable after three runs.
• Easy Cleaner: EasyCleaner found and removed 99 entries on its first pass -- on rough par with the old version of JV16 PowerTools. The second and third runs found zero additional items, meaning that the tool found and removed everything it could the first time, just as it should have, with no artificial number-pumping going on to try to impress you. EasyCleaner is a very nice little tool, and you sure can't beat the price! A Langa favorite.
• Registry Mechanic: found and removed 39 errors while informing me that the $30 paid/registered full version would remove an additional 58. ...Repeated runs turned up 19 problems each time. I have no way of knowing if these were 19 new problems, or 19 of the initial 39 that weren't really fixed, or 19 that came back after reboot, or what. But the combination of a low initial error count results and relatively high repeated count puts this tool on my "don't bother" list.
• Registry Repair: its first run when it reported it found and fixed an impressive 691 problems. But my interest faded quickly when the second run reported 124 items, and the third run reported 200 items. To me, that's a sign of something very wrong going on: either the program is introducing new errors as it runs; or is failing to correct some errors it reports; or is falsely reporting as "errors" things that are not really errors at all.
• Registry First Aid: found 59 problems on first run, less than what the old JV16 version could do. ...Alas, the second and third runs showed a real problem, reporting 123 and 109 problems, respectively; higher than the number found in the original run!
• Registry Medic: The initial scan on my test system turned up an even 100 problems, with the second and third scans turning up 80 and 68, respectively. The initial "100" didn't alarm me, as it's close to the number of "safe to fix" items reported by the old JV16 version, but if your initial scan starts at 100, how on earth can an immediate rescan still show 80 problems? That's a big red flag for me, and so I set aside this software, as well.
• The Registry Drill: In my tests, the Registry Drill found 134 items in its first pass, 110 in the second, and 109 in the third. These lackluster repeat performances, plus an antiquated-looking interface, and a setup that makes it clear that XP support was bolted on to a much older product, all help convince me that this is not a top-tier tool.
• RegistryFix: In my tests, the software flagged 105 problems on the first run, 66 on the second, and 55 on the third. The program's interface is nice enough, but the results weren't anything special. I see no particular reason to select and use this software.
• CleanMyPC: In my tests, the software found 130 problems on the first run, 114 on the second run, and 112 on the third; another lackluster performance that doesn't seem to warrant a deeper look.

The fact that your own results will likely vary is even more cause of concern. There simply is not a reliable way to test if a registry entry is valid or not. This requires a trained eye and not an automated tool. Langa cites the worst possible case for registry trash: a computer upgraded from Win98 to XP. The computer received regular scans from Norton's "WinDoctor" and ToniArts "EasyCleaner." When given to a group of XP experts, they manually removed over 3,000 entries.

There are no end-user benefits from running registry cleaners. Unecessary entries in the registry do no harm. This should not be a regular maintenance chore. It most certainly if done should not be automated. I hold to the singular distinction I made in the beginning: there are times that a fast registry editor with search is needed to fix a single issue under Expert hands. There is no justification for the regular use of automated registry cleaning tools; and as the results above show, they are of dubious merit as the "fix" for even one-off problems that need solving.

 

Let's see...a man who has proven through his help on this board that he knows his stuff (Bill Castner) says registry cleaners do no good and may do harm. That harm may extend into disaster. He backs that up by citing a man who is generally recognized as an expert in the field (Mark Russinovich).

It has been my experience...many times, in fact...that people may ask for or receive advice from sources with varied degrees of expertise. Then I've seen more than I care to remember decide to believe the least qualified. I've seen it happen in computers, horses, automobiles and quite a few other fields.

Having watched the disasters that have resulted, I've learned to listen to the most qualified. I'll believe Mr. Castner and Mr. Russinovich on this one.

 

Hi Yi Yi .... what a confusion !?!

Conflicting advice from resident experts, all of whom have given helpful answers on this board to various queries.
And worse, I can't even let the NFL decide because the Giants have about as much chance of beating the Eagles this afternoon as I have of understanding the issues put forth in this Registry discussion. And now a Lady weighing in with some practical reasoning. (I love your hairdo, Miz)....

OK.... thrown back to my own practical reasoning:

1) .. Had my Gateway 450sx4 v2002 for 5 yrs. with no probs at all. Not a belch..! Maybe 'cause I've never tried to 'improve' it with any kind of commercial tools? Maybe 'cause I only use it to Email family, surf the net and make genealogy webpages? That's what I got it for!

2) .. Now I'm thinking about 'improving' it with some commercial additives and find that the 'improvement' might be dangerous to my little lappy's health. "Might" being the operative word here but a scary one for me, being so fond of my little machine.

3) .. Conclusion: Don't mess with things I don't understand, especially the things the experts don't even agree on. Haven't used a cleaner, 'cept what's on the machine, for 5 yrs and am still chuggin' at the same speed so why flirt with trouble.?

4) .. Keep reading these forums for the excellent and interesting info to be found here but don't ask questions unless I want to hear a lot more than I can uderstand about what seemed to be a simple question. Probably there are no simple yes or no answers about the machine. (as in life itself).

Chas.

 

You've come to the right conclusion, if no problems and you're satisfied, leave well enough alone.

If you read carefully here, the only advocate of regular (preventative) "cleaning" is Windows Defender - LOL.

Regards - Charles

 

Please explain, as I am honestly confused.
Windows Defender comes as/with:

• A stand-alone download;
• Part of the retail package "Windows OneCare ";
• A recommendation on the site: "Windows OneCare Live "

Since I have #1 on several thousand sites; and #2 on several hundred, I can assure you that no registry cleaning is suggested, recommended, included or advised.

The only instance in which 'registry cleaner' and 'Windows Defender' are mentioned in the same context is #3. Both are optional, and both are suggestions only.

Finally, even in the case of #3, the "registry cleaner" proferred is nothing even close to the products under consideration in this thread. Despite its very narrow and limited focus, it still has managed to disfunction tens of thousands of machines.

As I implied earlier in my response to Arie above, I do not think either the 'registry cleaner' nor the 'firewall' components will survive the Beta period for Windows Live OneCare. And these are informed guesses. I for one would be stunned if they survive the MVP Summit.

 

Bill, what am I or anyone else to conclude other than what the above says? No, we don't mean it? And so what if its a seperate download.

And how would someone not of the anointed come to this conclusion:

Every reg cleaner touts its own ability and safety - how is this any different? You imply less damage - fair enough

The issue is that there is a vast difference between what the first quote says and what you say, which is fine, what I don't understand is why you're bending into a pretzel to rationalize it.

Regards - Charles

 

You shifted your argument from Windows Defender to Windows Live OneCare. These are different products, handled and authored by different Product Groups, and obviously marketed by different marketing groups.

The only one trying to bend pretzels now is you.

I have said all I care about the claims for the 'registry cleaner' under the site Windows Live OneCare. It is one of twenty or more Beta products offered on the site, are not retail products, and as Betas you will receive no support from Microsoft for any issues.

It should be clear enough to all that I do not approve of it either. Microsoft or not, although that has never been a personal consideration of mine. And as a very good guess, made repeatedly earlier, it will be removed from the Windows Live OneCare site by end-1st Quarter 2007 for exactly the reasons that originally ocassioned this thread.

 

Thanks - Ok, now I can answer.

My mistake, I conflated the two.

They both represent MS to the laymen.

I do understand that you don't approve of One Care's registry cleaner.

Regards - Charles

 

Windows Live OneCare is an interesting experiment, and how long and it what final form it will continue is an unknown. As far as I am concerned the experiment can end at midnight tonight. You have to appreciate the web site in the context that it is more a marketing driven site, then a technical one.

Some parts "borrowed" from other Product Groups are likely to still be promoted. Your Example of Defender is certainly one. But Defender is a product install, not an on-line application.

The intention, my guess, was that Windows Live OneCare could showcase retail products, as well as serve as one possible web-based on-demand scanners for malware, or other on-line problems. The real focus is a marketing driven one to move people away from Messenger IM, away from OE, and move to Live Mail.

Vista, for example, does not come with OE. It comes with a stand-alone Live Mail client.

So take anything found on the web site for Windows Live OneCare with more than a few dashes of salt. Other than Live Mail (the intended replacement for HotMail), all the rest are either client-side and non-web-based downloads, such as Defender, or true Beta products.

I actually like the on-line Antivirus and Malware scanner objects on the site. They have yet to make me rush away from alternative sites, but so far they do at least a credible job.

Live Mail as an HTTP email reader is up to you. I use Google mail for this purpose, having tired of Hotmail for several hundred reasons.

The calendar and other applets seem reasonably OK; but I am not moved yet to go web-based for them, nor is it clear they will survive the final form cut for the site either. There are some 17 other Beta web-based applets that I have no interest in trying.

As to your central point:

I agree completely. I cannot explain or even attempt to justify the confusion created by the Live OneCare site. I think a lot of mistakes were made. I am no marketing wizard, but it seems to me the long-term plans for a product such as Live Mail, the Microsoft antivirus application (yes, they do have one as a retail product), and the Microsoft efforts with Defender, all of which will stay, are lost in the fluff of Live OneCare Betas that are likely to be seen as failed items and simply disappear from the site.

The only fortunate thing about Windows Live OneCare, is that relatively few users have stumbled across it.

Windows OneCare, retail, is a very different product, and for stand-alone or small work group settings is worth a very hard look. It does not, for the curious, include a registry cleaner. The managed version of this product should come out mid-2007. It is a direct competitor on both stand-alone computers and (soon) for large managed sites for Anti-virus and Anti-malware from the likes of Symantec/Norton, McAfee, TrendMicro, and others.

Windows Defender is a very competent stand-alone product. It too will be added to the managed site suite along with the Microsoft Anti-virus products (yes, more than one), but have a different name. I am not inviting product comparisons with CounterSpy, Spyware Doctor, SpySweeper or others in making this comment. All have legitimate defenders. But as a product effort and in actual use it does an excellent job, and is free. Microsoft has stated it will not ever charge for this product in non-managed settings.

I hope that clarifies my position.

Bill Castner

 

@TonyT,
See: http://www.windowsbbs.com/showthread.php?t=61016

It has not yet generated the heat and light of my first Occasional Myth article here, and I am re-assured as a result that my fellow Forum members have not fallen for this scam.

I hope you appreciate that I am not trying to be a "Troll" with these occasional articles. I do think about them, and I try as best I can to summarize a fairly complicated single issue and invite comments. While RAM Optomizers seem a trap the fairly experienced members of this Forum have avoided, I wanted it and other planned articles as a linkable resource quite honestly for my own benefit, and obviously as well to others who are asked about them and want a reasoned debate about the merits.

I drafted this morning my next article on Virtual Memory optomization and the Pagefile; and drafted my subsequent article on "Internet Optomizers ". I want to review them both before attempting to dare publish them in this occasional and irregular series.

I have honestly enjoyed the debate here on registry cleaners. I thank everyone who has disagreed with me. I honestly appreciate the reasons why, and all that have contributed have shed some some light for the readers of the thread. I think now at least a more informed opinion can be formed by each reader as to whether to use them, use them regularly, use them to solve a specific issue, or never use them, as to whether it is a good idea or not. I personally am unlikely to continue to comment, as I think it has proved a distraction. But from what I have read to date this is very good stuff and well worth a read by a Forum member to help make up their own minds.

 

Mike is back!!!! Yay!!!!! Missed you, hope all is well with you and yours these days. Glad to see you again!

I believe registry cleaners have their use and place, and not in the hands of inexperienced users without clear objectives. XP is very tolerant of registry "trash ".
Johanna
(Rockster & Mike in one thread...what a happy surprise this morning! Shouldn't we have a party or something?)

 

Thank you dear and sweet lady for the cheer, and Welcome.

And that Rockster, well he is the ROCK right!
I like him, don't care what everyone else says!

Your welcome is my party!

You summed it up as only you can! They have their use and place! I never recommend a normal user to try Reg cleaning on their own. Only under expert guidance.

And you mention another aspect that needs attention.

This very true. It is also very tolerant of the actual Reg cleans themselves.

What I mean is, in severe situations over many years I have resorted to multiple Registry cleans with multiple Cleaners and mostly in safe mode.

Usually EasyClean, RegCleaner, Ccleaner, Ultra Cleaner, RegScrub and RegSeeker and more in some cases. I never run more than 2 back two back before rebooting to continue.

They all have their different strengths so what one misses the other may find.
In addition to running them I usually run them repeatedly until they come up clean.

Of course I back up the existing registry in multiple ways and try to get it on other media or partition before doing this.

In addition I am doing these in Safe mode out of the way of most active programs such as Virus and Adware cleaners, firewalls and most active viri and spy/adware. Those things that could cause a problem and crash as mentiond below.

Although in most cases I don't mind recommending a Reg clean if I have a general idea of the overall health of the system. CClean and EasyClean have good reputations of being safe cleaners.

It is the severe situations that need the most care in running reg cleaners.

Remember I said in SEVERE situations (really bad issues with spy/adware viri) and especially before an OS upgrade or a severe incident that requires an overlay/repair install.

And you know in all these times in passing years I have never had these cleans to crash XP. Hence my statement that XP is very tolerant to the Reg cleaning process itself.

The reported crashes and trashed operating systems attributed to registry cleaning are probably caused by Viri or spy/adware activity during the cleans, that cause registry corruption during Reg clean and especially if it causes a disk error or OS crash in the midst of a reg clean.

I go to extremes to clean up temps, disk errors, viri, spy/adware and windows events and other errors before doing these multiple Registry cleans.

Like a crash during a defrag, a crash during a registry clean is pretty much equivalent, as to the risk of damage in case of a crash or power failure.

Weeeelllll! Enough!

Thanks again for the Warm Welcome!

Mike

 

A denouement of a sort:

An appropriate use of a registry cleaner http://www.windowsbbs.com/showthread.php?t=61504

Regards - Charles

 

No thanks unicorn, the first time around was enough. Let's not obfuscate the denouement.