Alternative Browser

Interesting comments from Jim Eshelman,
MS-MVP (Microsoft Most Valuable Professional) in his E-List News page,
http://winsupportcenter.com/elist.htm
- alternate link: http://aumha.org/elist.htm -
under NO MORE NEW VERSIONS OF INTERNET EXPLORER, and ANOTHER BAD MOVE: NO MORE IE 5.5
21 June 2003

 

Thanks for the Win Support Centre link Alice.

Most interesting and informative. I sure do agree with the author there about some of his favourite freeware programs. Adware 6 has found Xupiter, for example, on both my system and that of my wife.

Once I knew about it, I was able to search for and remove all bits and pieces which Adware doesn't do of course.

 

Hi Welt,

I have great respect for Jim Eshelman. I subscribe to his newsletter and visit his help pages and message board quite often. His Windows shutdown troubleshooters are classics, refernced time and time again on the newsgroups.

I meant to ask you about your earlier post:

I was also "toying" with the idea of trying out either 1.3.1 or possibly 1.4rc2. I barely meet the minumum system requirements listed at http://www.mozilla.org/releases/mozilla1.4rc2/ ( Win95B PentiumII 233mhz 64mb ram) but I was put off by the 1.4rc2 release notes "Known Issue" with ATI video driver:

under "Known Problems "
=================copy/paste===============
Windows: Using ATI video drivers will lead to random crashes on many sites. Mac OS ATI driver versions affected: All (?) Windows ATI driver versions affected: 5.13.1.6118 (Mac OS) Workaround: set your screen to 'Thousands of colors' rather than 'Millions'. (Windows) Possible Workaround: Revert to an older driver (6094?)-- Untested (Bug 101055 )
==============end c/p=====================
The Mozilla 1.0.1 release notes don't mention an ATI issue at all.
....I have a pretty old Win95 ATI RAGE PRO driver (MACXW4.VXD version 4.10.2269 and MACXW4.DRV version 4.10.01.2278) so I was hoping that the ATI issue would not make a difference on my machine.

EDIT: I dug a little deeper and found the following at http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=120893
============copy/paste==============
From the Gimp Win32 page (http://www.gimp.org/~tml/gimp/win32/)

Many people with ATI Rage Pro cards have complained about display errors. It seems that this is a known problem with the drivers for these cards, and can be
worked around by setting DEVBMP=0 in the [display] section of the Windows system.ini file, like this:

[display]
DEVBMP=0

This also appears to fix the scroll crash for me.

===============nd c/p================

THis is a very old issue with the ATI Rage 3D video graphics and Internet Explorer 4 and Higher...( it has never affected me with IE5.5 though ) See http://members.aol.com/don5408/uaskb/ie4freeze.html

On freeware, I didn't remember seeing his recommendations so I checked out http://aumha.org/freeware.htm

I'm not really a big freeware fan but I do use IrfanView and TweakUI (older Win95 version) and a couple of the Win95 powertoys (cabview and sendtoX). I don't use Adaware... I use Spybot Search and Destroy ... for what it's worth, I've never found much spyware of any consequence, but then I don't have kids downloading and installing stuff and basically stick to Mozilla ansd Netscape (hubby is pretty good about not installing unknown software with IE, plus I have "Install on Demand" disabled, which helps.

 

By the way, Welt,

Netscape 7.1, I gather, is going to be based on Mozilla 1.4, .............so.............I hope the ATI bugs are worked out by the time 7.1 is released, for your sake, since you seem anxious to try it.

 

Hi Alice

Not sure I can do justice to your message especially at this late hour First off, before I forget, go to
http://winsupportcenter.com/freeware.htm for Eshelman's [?"] favourite freeware.

Good idea to subscribe to his newsletter. Thanks for the reminder. Re NS 7.1, I'll wait for Silly Dog to do his `compaction' thing. I'm mainly interested in Bookmarks improvement vis a vis sorting and editing. 7.02 is rather useless in this respect...at least to me.

The way I read Mozilla bug notes re ATI, I gathered the video issue was across the board for ATI in all
Windows OS versions. I don't currently have any video problems with my ATI Rage IIC PCI video but I thought I'd have a look at DEVBMP=1 vs 0 issue. Low and behold, try as I might, I cannot find a Display section in either my Sys.ini or Win.ini files. I recall it in Win 95 but I've been over every entry. Must be handled some other way in 98SE.

By the way, I also don't have any video problems using IE 5.5 browser with my ATI software.

You didn't mention Logitech mouseware below Ver 9.60 being a problem. To reiterate, I have NO intent
of reinstalling the 9.60 mouse driver. For me, this driver is `trouble'...or certainly seems to be since my
freezes disappear when I remove it and revert back to 9.25 which I'm currently using in single click mode.

By the way and speaking of scrolling, on this Windows BBS site, I have NO problems scrolling with the
mouse wheel. I went to the Modzilla `bug' site and my scroll wheel simply won't work which seems to
prove [in part] the call for Ver 9.60 or later. If, however, this applies only to Modzilla's own site, then
I might reconsider...but only reconsider probably. I'll wait and see.

Finally re spyware, I do install `recommended' freeware or shareware and have no children who DL and install freeware at will. Only occasionally do I encounter a problem. The most common problem I get with these pieces of software is `resources leakage'. I've just gone through this very problem this weekend, clearly out the suspected software, and voila, the rapid leakage seems to be gone.

Take care Alice and thanks.

 

Hi All

Curiosity question: I just viewed and checked the foregoing post via the preview provision and all was OK vis a vis word wrap.

Now when I have sent it, the lines are improperly wrapped. Anybody know why?

 

You'll find the answer in the link I gave you before, http://members.aol.com/don5408/uaskb/ie4freeze.html

I wouldn't worry about ATI freezeup issues unless you experince them.

On Mouse Wheel scrolling "Known Issues" on Windows, the Mozilla 1.4rc2 release notes say:
===============copy/paste=================
Windows: Mousewheel scrolling does not work with all drivers. If you have problems, try updating your driver or disabling any "helper" programs that your mouse uses. If you have a Logitech mouse, you can either upgrade the driver (to at least v9.60) or enable the "Microsoft Office compatible scrolling" option in the Mouse/Buttons control panel. (Bug 33732 )
==============end c/p====================

I also have a Logitech mouse - PS/2 Scrollpoint though, not a wheel.
My lmouse.vxd version is 7.50.465 ! dated 10-01-97. I have DL'ed and saved Mouseware versions 8.12 AND 9.24, but I've never tried out either. Guess I just figured, if it ain't broke...

You said scrolling doesn't work on the bugzilla page, and you're "kind of" right! I tried both http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101055 and http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33732
...my middle button only scrolls the CC box of e-mail addresses, not the page itself!

If I place the mouse pointer on the pages' scrollbar then the mouse scrollpoint will work to scroll the page, and will still work when I move the pointer to another part of the page. I rarely use the scroll button though... That's pretty funny, a bug on the bugzilla page

 

Hi Alice

That video work around seems to apply only to Aptiva computers by IBM. Guess I missed seeing the comment re `adding' a `Display Section' to the Sys.ini file. No matter, I still plan to `leave well enought alone'. I simply was curious.

Went back to those Mozilla bug pages and you are right: mouse scroll wheel `does work' on the scroll bar and for the inset email addresses but nowhere else. I think those pages are the first I've ever encountered where my scroll wheel won't work.

Guess I'm not interested in Mozilla. Even a Philadelphia lawyer would have trouble figuring out how to post a bug report and all the followup that goes with it.

Perhaps I'll just settle for NS 7.02 and not worry about editing bookmarks.

I like my mouseware 9.24 Version with one exception: no matter what I do or where I look, on my wife's computer, I cannot stop a mouse icon from appearing in the task bar whenever she reboots. I can find nothing in the Start Up configuration to disable. In Control Panel, the mouse setup panel has the `Show icon on the task bar' unenabled [no check]; ditto in the table that appears if the task bar mouse icon is right clicked and opened.

She and I have the identical Win 98SE OS version and build [separately registered but different systems]. I don't have this problem.

Weird.

 

Nope, it applies to all computer system using certain ATI video cards/ drivers.

See http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=175148
Computer May Stop Responding When Scrolling Through Web Page

Sometimes you need to REcheck a setting, Apply the change, then go back and UNcheck the setting. I've had that happen a few times when Windows get's "mixed up ".

 

Thanks Alice,

Re the video problem, I went to your reference at MS and noted the following under `symptoms':

"When you scroll through a Web page with Internet Explorer, or through mail headers or mail messages with Outlook Express, your computer may stop responding (hang) ".

Well, I use IE as little as possible and scrolling has not been a problem and I've never used Outlook Express. Guess my `dare to be different' is a good `on line' motto.

Re enabling and unenabling settings for her mouse, it seems to make no difference. I suspect the task bar problem re mouse, is more Logitech keyboard based but I can't find the answer there either. I had to remove my Logitech keyboard it caused me so much grief.

 

Welt ...

I haven't paid a whole lot of attention to the mouse problems on your two computers, but have you uninstalled and reinstalled the mouse software and drivers?

M$ IntelliPoint software places a mouse icon in the SysTray, also, and the icon removal is done from the icon itself. Any such option with your LogiTech icon?

 

Thanks Jim

I know nothing of Ms or M$ Tellipoint but know that my wife doesn't have it. And yes, I have uninstalled and reinstalled her software both mouse and keyboard.

I can remove her Icon from the Tray via the icon. I just don't want it there every time she reboots. It's simply a bother. I'm a firm believer in not having excess Tray icons as they tend to consume resources.

 

I liked Mozilla but found it hard to add plug ins to it.

 

If Mozilla fails to detect the plugin, usually you can just copy over the plugin files to the Mozilla Plugins folder.

Here is a good starting point to look for Mozilla plugin information:
http://plugindoc.mozdev.org/windows.html

 

Now that this thread appears to be pretty well "talked out ", thought I would toss out my 2 cents worth of jabbering.

Curious point, I have been using IE for long as I can remember (sometimes that's only a day or two tho...), and quite simply have to say that it has never been problematic for me, at least that I am directly aware of. I also tried Netscape out of necessity (some danged bank site could only be accessed with Netscape) but I gotta say I was not impressed with it.

From time to time I had considered trying out the other browsers, but never took the leap. However, recently I ran across "Crazy Browser" and long story short, after a couple of days, set it as my default browser. Altho it "uses IE components "(?), it is noticeably faster than IE -- but there are so many other little plusses that make it better. The best feature to me is the ability to establish "groups" of sites in categories (like all of my preferred sites for weather, or sports, or news, and so on...), and when I open a group the browser loads all of the sites up in a tabbed arrangement, then I can just go through the sites, never waiting on one to open because they are sitting their already pre-loaded...

Lot's of other little plusses that I won't boar you all with. I have only been using it a couple of days, so I have not done much tweaking, altho one drawback might be that it does not appear to work with typical IE plugins (?), like the Google toolbar (but I'm not sure yet - and I use Search Bar Pro anyway, so it doesn't matter...). And, if need be (I have not actually needed to yet, but I did check to be safe), I can just open IE and use it without any contention. Spiffy little freeware browser, saves me lots of time and repetitive stress actions.

Having said that, strongly considering giving Opera a try, based on what I have noted on forums. I guess I have shied away in the past thinking that it might cause problems (the Mike Flynn theory of avoiding having more than one of anything, well of software components that is - Hi Mike!), but am now considering it. Which leads me to inquire if there are any traps to watch out for in adding on Opera, or is it just a standalone thing?

EDIT: I think this is the thread where I saw the link about no new development on IE, and general concern about no new browsers coming along down the road. Well check out the link below the following comment about the new browser discussed in the link... "Within five years it'll be on everybody's desktop," predicts Silvia Pfeiffer of CSIRO Mathematical and Information Sciences in Sydney, Australia. "

http://www.nature.com/nsu/030623/030623-11.html

 

Welt wrote:

• "I'm a firm believer in not having excess Tray icons as they tend to consume resources. "

Tray icons represent programs, usually loaded at startup, which are running in the background, but the icons, themselves, don't consume much in the way of resources.

Since you use Win98 SE, and are concerned about resource usage, here's a suggestion ... open C:\Windows, find Rsrcmtr.exe and place a shortcut to it in your Startup folder. It will place an icon in your tray which will give you a constant, graphic display of the state of your resources.

The most important thing to remember about system resources in Win9x is that they're there to be used. There's no need to get panicked if your resources fall below some arbitrary number. In fact, you don't really need to become concerned until your resource level drops down to about 20-25%, at which point you should begin to think about saving whatever you're working on and rebooting.

I show 13 icons in the tray on my 98 SE computer, and the resource meter, which is one of them, shows a resource level of 56%, which is about normal for my system. That computer, though, is rebooted daily, unlike my XP Pro computer, which sometimes goes for days without being rebooted (I've got 21 icons in the tray there).

BTW, Welt, have you done a line-by-line comparison of the startup items in the System Configuration Utilites on your computer and your wife's? There's got to be something being loaded at startup on her computer that's not being loaded on yours ... the mouse icon wouldn't be there, otherwise.

 

bored (and frustrated) at the Opera

Well, I installed and shook down the Opera browser and thought I should post back with my interim review on it, so....

First I would like to clarify that I have at least a couple of hundred "extra" software components installed, some of which are rather involved and complex, and required a fairly steep learning curve -- the point of which is that I feel that I am very proficient at being able to quickly get up to speed on new software (I am defensively trying to declare that I am NOT stupid). To which I must add, after a few hours of attempting to become acclimated to Opera, I am not real thrilled with it and do not see that all the hype is justified. It's like they intended to build a slightly better mousetrap, and they did create some new and better concepts (although some concepts were irritatingly worse…see comment on "bookmarks" below), but they seemed to have missed out on including the basics, like intuitive features -- I found that I had to ponder what to do and how to do it or what I had done to get where I was at (kind of like if I've had a few too many beers)...

Most of all, I gotta say, it's the buggiest software I have EVER encountered (and it's more than a little obtuse in some aspects). I won't bore you with a long list of quirks, but for an example, double clicking the "trash" icon in "notes" initiates a "new accounts" panel -- you Opera proponents please explain that.... And everywhere I see F4 noted as the toggle for "hotlist ", even on the pulldown menu for it, but all F4 ever does is open a "blank page ". And after importing IE favorites, geez loueez, what a buggy mess to try to do anything with them -- plain whacked out, that is (and why the heck do I have to go to the extra effort to get into "manage bookmarks" to do anything with them for criminies sake). You know, somebody was just out in left field when they designed some of the "features ". I said I wouldn't bore you all with a long list, so better stop with this rant. But, gotta add, I have not seen so many "shortcuts" since the old days of DOS and Wordstar -- how many hundreds are there and who on this planet has the wherewithal to use all of them?

I have not given up on Opera yet, I am going to try to continue to get past the darn-this-piece-of-stuff stage, but so far it has been mostly an exercise in frustration, and I just had to blow off a little steam at you Opera buffs that seem to think it is such a wonderful thing, and warn some of you IE folks that if you are thinking of taking Opera for a test run, you better pack an extra big box of patience (especially if you "don’t like to read the directions ", as in help - which is pretty extensive in Opera, but unfortunately needs to be).

One last thing -- I have not seen (yet) where all the professed blazing speed is with Opera. Maybe with my machine and DSL it is simply not a factor, but I just did not see anything being any faster.

 

My apologies to everyone, I seem to be suffering from a case of premature posting on the subject of browsers. Probably should have done some research first (although I thought I had a pretty good perspective based on what I had seen on forums…) and taken a little more time to evaluate the potential "survivors" before jumping into this thread.

Anyway, I felt compelled to post back and correct an assertion in a previous post regarding "Crazy Browser ". As good as CB is for what it does, I have stumbled onto another browser that I had not heard much about, that seemed intriguing enough to give it a try, and coincidentally it simply appears to be the same concept as CB only considerably upgraded, compensating for some of the deficiencies of CB that I was purposely overlooking (and attempting to compensate for in evaluating Opera and Firebird as hopefully my eventual main browser).

The newest browser gem that I have become enamored with is called "SlimBrowser ", link and feature description below. If you like the "group" concept AND intuitive simplicity and speed, give it a try -- it's painless, fast, and a time saver. It does not have the extra neat little concepts like Opera and Firebird (nor the complexity of them either), but for me it will be my default browser until I can get up to speed with one of those (assuming that I can hang in there until I get past the frustration of trying to cope with the inherent bugs that I have run into with them). I do know that I will never go back to "plain old" IE, as SB (and some of the features of Opera and Firebird) makes it seem dinosaur-ishly archaic.

http://www.flashpeak.com/

"SlimBrowser is a multiple-site browser based on tab-page interface. It incorporates a large collection of features like recoverable popup killer, form filler, site group, quick-search, auto login, hidden sites, built-in commands and scripting, online translation, script error suppression, blacklist/whitelist filtering "

 

I haven't found Opera to be particularly buggy, but I haven't played with a lot of its "features" yet. I would agree with Keywester about the bookmarks, though ... it's almost impossible to "manage" them, once you get them imported from another browser.

I took a quick look at SlimBrowser, and it appears to be another skinny Internet Explorer, even using the same icons. Despite IE's vaunted speed, it loads uncached images VERY slowly on my system, and SlimBrowser is only marginally faster. Favorites aren't as easy to manage as bookmarks are in Mozilla/Netscape/Firebird, but are definitely easier than in IE.

Firebird remains my browser of choice, and I'll use Opera and SlimBrowser to back it up. Goodbye M$IE!!! Unfortunately, I can only remove the shortcut icons.

 

keywester,
For my money, the primary features of Opera are its safety and security. I can browse anywhere without worrying about rogue ActiveX controls, mouse-over downloads, automatic execution of email attachments, or pretty much anything else. Even the javascript seems to work smoothly without undesired effects.

I don't find it to be any more buggy than IE, but if I could change the word I would agree that it's "quirky ". Many things are strange, and the email client needs a lot of development before it really makes sense. My F4 key toggles the hotlist just fine, tho.

I think the choice of browser depends on what is most important to the user. I gladly put up with quirks and the occasional page that doesn't display properly, just to be free of the dangers of IE. I'm using Opera 100% now, after spending a few months getting used to it. It took longer than that to get IE properly set and surrounded by "guards" so it was safe. I'm now beginning to uninstall them.