Going to raid, need info

Hi Bill,

My system has been set up for over a year in a way similar to what you're thinking about, and has worked flawlessly. I have three identical 100GB HDs, two of which are in a RAID 1 (mirror) array, on the mainboard's RAID bus, with the third on one of the two IDE buses.

I do (almost) nightly backups from the RAID drives to the IDE drive using Drive Image 7.0. I do them manually, rather than scheduling them, because I'm not here every night, and I don't like to leave my computer on if I'm going to be away for more than a few hours. The IDE drive is partitioned, with backups being written alternately to the two partitions.

This may seem like overkill to a lot of people, but it has worked for me. The RAID 1 setup provides redundancy in case one of the drives fails, and the backups are to bail me out if something goes wrong with the system.

As an example, just a few days ago I was unable, for reasons unknown, to get online, even though I could connect with my XP laptop (both computers on a LAN, with router). Doing a system restore proved fruitless, but restoring the array from the previous night's backup with Drive Image solved the problem.

I have no experience with Karen's Replicator, but it does have the advantage of being free.

I'm sure that Rockster will have something of value to add, but this will give you something to think about, in the meantime.

 

Becros 52:

Couple of quick comments. A Raid mirror oversimplified simply puts the exact same thing on each of two drives - if one fails, you have the other to fall back on. One can use a removable drive bay ($8 at Computer Geeks) and if you want, change drives, permitting one mirrored drive from week x and another from week y etc. Thats somewhat of a failsafe for specific points in time. One can also Image a drive making a complete backup image at any point in time and save it to a seperate partition, a second drive, a set of CD's or whatever - also a failsafe procedure. Personally, I like Norton's Ghost but also have PowerQuest's Drive Image - last 4 versions. Now, Karen's Replicator is one of the slickest little programs for making complete or incremental backups of everything except your whole system. You can schedule any number of jobs and run them automatically or manually. Check it out along with Karen's other tools at http://www.karenware.com/

Personally, I'd recommend all three of these approaches because each does something different and has its own advantages and disadvantages. If one does use all three in conjunction with each other, you will sleep very good at night re: total data backup and the ability to recover from most any disaster.

Now, if we can just get some feedback from ehauff.

 

Rockster2U wrote:

• "One can use a removable drive bay ($8 at Computer Geeks) and if you want, change drives, permitting one mirrored drive from week x and another from week y etc. "

If I read you correctly, you're suggesting that you can swap drives in and out of the RAID array at will.

I have experience only with the Promise hardware on my mainboard, and its associated software but, were I to do what you suggest, I would have to rebuild the array each time I swapped drives. That means going into the RAID BIOS and starting from scratch ... prepping the new drive and then copying everything from the drive left in place to the new drive, which takes about an hour.

Since it seems you're talking about using three drives, I submit that my configuration, where I back up the mirror to the third drive, serves the same purpose, without the necessity of swapping drives.

Or, did I completely misunderstand you?

I think we may have beat on ehauff so hard that he's bailed on us.

 

No, you didn't mis-understand. However if a catastrophic error occurs, both drives on your mirror have the same problem. OK, you personally have an imaged backup to restore from in what - maybe 15-20 minutes. One could also have a spare drive that had been removed from the mirror and be back up and running (with all but the latest - since removal from the miror - data files) inside of a couple of minutes. Replicator can restore any data within a couple more minutes but you have complete system use immediately after putting the spare back in. Maybe 3 minutes maximum downtime including the boot. Yes, I'm referencing a 3 drive system, not counting spares - my main machine has 5 including 2 removables.

In my book, the important thing is to have more than 1 backup strategy. Now, the devils advocate - I recently built a voicemail server for an organization with 185 phones - here, there's a big difference between 2-3 minutes of downtime vs 15-20. No mirrors involved in that configuration however, so its really not an apples to apples comparison.

ehauff has left the building?

 

R2U wrote:

• "One could also have a spare drive that had been removed from the mirror and be back up and running (with all but the latest - since removal from the miror - data files) inside of a couple of minutes. "

True, but not in a RAID configuration ... you'd be in a single drive configuration (with my RAID hardware/software, anyway).

I have the advantage of being able to restore my RAID array from the backup at leisure, as it's my personal system and no business depends on it.

 

Raid Setup

JSS3rd,Rockster2U
Thanks to you both for the input. I am working on your suggestions and trying to get up to speed on the issues.
Wow, all these hard drives!! But, like you say, it is important to be able to sleep at night. A question comes to mind, though.
Are we talking a work station terminal here??? I try to get two years out of our computers and I am just wondering if I should be considering upgrading to the work station versus the desktop.
Another question that comes to mind. Once you have all the backup in the world and your data is protected, aren't you still just as safe as the power situation is stable. For example, my recent harddrive replacement was necessarry because a surge got by the UPS. If I had three drives or five, wouldn't the surge get all of them???
I really liked Karen's site!!! I have yet to use any of her programs, but I just enjoyed the whole visit to her site.
I recommend it. Plus, I am researching some of the links she has to others in the business. Thanks so much for the tip!!
Bill

 

Technically, I'm not sure how one differentiates a workstation from a desktop - not really one of the things that I pay any attention to.

As to the UPS question - I'd say no. One fried doesn't necessarily mean all fried. Usually brown outs do as much or more damage than surges, but I'd seriously question the quality of your UPS if a surge fried a hard drive. Best Value in UPS's I've seen is Sams for an APC 1100 Pro at $126 - was $118 a few months ago. Tripp Lite, nobody else even close.

 

Rockters2U,
The way that I understand it, the work station has a processor for each function, while the desktop has just one for all.
Like say, when your mouse is in stall mode, while the processor is working on something in the background.
Each function--has it's own processor, thus you can have a problem in one area and it doesn't affect other functions.
Smoother, faster, less glitches, etc. Plus, as I understand it, you can run with more RAM. Like I am maxed at 1024, whereas with the workstation, you can get up to 3000 or 4000, presently.
At least, that is how our tech explained it to us. And of course, the price is way higher. He was talking the 5000 to 6000 range to start.
The work station in addition to separate processors and increased RAM capabilities, comes with dual Harddrives with Raid setup.
Also, the way he described it, the Workstation has technology that is ahead of the desktop by several years. Mainly because the workstation is usually sold to the corporate environment, who can afford it. As the price comes down on products, they are then incorporated into the desktop.
Such as my new fancy, desktop with 1024, XP Pro, which I purchased last year, I had it custom built, not a off the shelf model, he says that technology was in the workstation, say maybe in 1998. Like say five years ahead of the desktop.
At least that is what he says. Me, I am still learning.
I think my harddrive power situation was because I had the UPS overloaded. I use the Tripplite and use them on all the setups, but I never gave a thought to how much that I had on it.
I had my PDA, digital pen, card readers, printer, scanner, desk light, monitor, tower, and oh yes, battery charger for my digital camera batteries, and my phone charger and the charger for my two way radios. I don't think that I left anything out, might have.
Point being, after reading the specs on my tripplite model, I believe I had exceeded it protection capabilities. Thus the problem. When it glitched, I think it actually was a power loss, who knows, but it wiped my PDA and scrambled the files on my harddrive and also the cache would not work anymore. I was actually very lucky as the drive was functional, barely, which allowed me to super backup everything before installing a new drive. I now have just my tower and monitor on it, maybe my PDA. In my reading, I read how you can test it's overload by running a self test on the unit. I highly recommend this, it will tell you if the UPS is overloaded or not. Of course, I would have known this already if I had read the instructions the first time around. Thanks Bill

 

Bill ...

I was surprised at just how difficult it is to find a definition of "work station" online, as the usual reference is to the area in which the computer user works, or the desk or stand that the computer sits on, rather than the computer itself.

The best I could come up with is (to paraphrase) a "stand-alone computer networked to other computers ", which would seem to describe nearly any personal computer with an internet connection. The description provided by your techie would seem to make more sense, but a "processor for each function "? How many would that be?

In addition to my mainboard CPU, the onboard RAID has its own processor, my graphics, audio, and SCSI cards all have processors on them, I have multiple hard drives in a RAID configuration, I can use 3GB RAM, and I'm on a LAN with two other computers in addition to having a full-time cable internet connection. Do I have a personal computer or a work station? Beats me.

You never mentioned the rating on your UPS, but the first thing that entered my mind when you first mentioned the problem was "overload ". You might consider using multiple UPSs, rather than just one, so that everything on the system can be adequately protected. There are distinct advantages to doing so ... not only does it spread the load, but it increases the number of sockets available.

 

JSS3rd
Hey Jim,
You now know all I know about "Work stations ". It sounds to me like if you aren't one, then you are real close to the description that he gave me. It sounds like you probably have that much money in your system also!!! It adds up, doesn't it???
It is just amazing, what the industry has become. I remember in 1978, Tandy by Radio Shack, it used cassette tapes and had like maybe 4 or 6 RAM. I am looking forward to the next twenty
years.
I am curious as to how you got up to 3GB of RAM??? I like that idea!! I am jealous now.
I never thought of the multiple UPS idea. That is a good thought. I like it!!! That is one of my big fears now. I live in Florida, the lightning capital of the world. Are you talking, just simply plugging into another socket or actually plugging one into another???
I believe I have something like a 1000??? It is supposed to have 60 minutes of battery life. The biggest I could find off the shelf anyway. I am sure there is bigger and better.
Do you use the automatic shutdown program???
Stay warm up there!! Bill

 

JSS3rd
Jim,
By the way, What is a Lawn guylander??? Bill

 

Hi Bill,

Truth to tell, I don't know how many $$ I have invested in my system ... it just sort of "growed, like Topsy" (Uncle Tom's Cabin).

My first computer, in 1987, was an Amiga 500 ... the OS was loaded from a floppy disk on every bootup. When my younger son took it to college with him in the fall of 1988, I graduated to an Amiga 2000, which I eventually fitted with a 24MB (MB, not GB) hard drive mounted on a card, and a 2.4 Kbps external modem.

I used that for all my computer needs until the summer of 1997, when I bought my first PC ... powered by an AMD K6 233, which was absolutely cutting edge at the time. My elder son, who was in computer sales at a major university, told me to get not less than a 4GB hard drive and no less than 64MB RAM ... and, of course, it came with Windows 95.

15 months later I graduated to a PII 450, again cutting edge (everyone was selling K6 266s, PII 350s, and PII 400s), which I used until ordering my present computer two years ago. As I get new computers, the older ones wash downstream to other family members and friends, but I continue to support them.

I didn't mean to imply that I have 3GB RAM (I have 1), just that my mainboard (GigaByte GA-7DXR+) will support that much.

Nor did I mean to suggest daisy-chaining UPSs, as I think that would defeat the purpose. Plug them into separate sockets, and run them in parallel, rather than in series.

My primary UPS is a Conext 900 AVR , which looks exactly like the APC, except that the case is a different color (Conext swears that they have no relationship with APC, even though they use APC's PowerChute software, and their unit looks like APC's ... ???) The secondary one is a Tripplite 675, which I've had a lot longer, and in which I've had to replace the batteries. And, no, I don't use the shutdown software, although I probably should.

I'm already thinking about my next computer (I expected the K6 I bought seven years ago to be the last I would ever buy ... HA!), which will undoubtedly be in the AMD 64 family ... more bang for the buck.

I'm from OH, coming from not far from where Johanna lives, but I've been on Long Island, in NY, since 1967. "Lawn Guyland" is how the natives mispronounce it.

 

Becros52:

First, I'll apologize - then, I'll explain.

Sounds to me like your tech guy is smoking something mighty strong and has a rather gullible client. It also sounds like he can afford to at those prices. No offense meant but you asked for it. I'd certainly challenge his definition of, and subsequently, your understanding of "a workstation" but the terminology has been blurred in recent years. Workstation is a machine hooked up to a server in a multi-machine client:server environment while a desktop more commonly refers to a specific case style. And no, I don't pay much attention to the definitional parameters because different people call em' all kind of different things.

My bet is that your tech guy has never even built a dual processor machine, let alone the pipe dream he's trying to buffalo you with - be careful. If you ever want to leave Florida and drive west for 3 hours, I'll show you how to cut your tech guy's quote 50% +++ and still have enough change left over to buy several UPS's along with a couple few dozen roses and a nice dinner for you, your bride and your mother-in-law. At the prices you referenced, you could even hire a limousine and a driver and still come out ahead - charter a plane for that matter.

 

R2U,

Bill's in Ft. Myers, not Pensacola. He can't get to Gainesville in three hours ... forget about "N'awlins ".

 

Rockster2U
I think you are probably right on the price! That is why I never bought one. He is pretty good at what he does, yet I think he is a bit on the high side. Of course, he is trying to make a living at this. I just don't feel that he has to retire off me. And of course, he can bullshit me. Hence, the need for me to learn more about all this. Slow process!!
I have a limited computer background and I am trying to educate myself. His high prices is one of the reasons. And if you go shopping, most sales clerks don't know either. So I read and then read some more, and just recently, joined this forum. So then, I will get brave enough to try something. Which has been good and has been bad. My wife says that I can't stand for things to work right, so I break it, so I can fix it again.
I am getting pretty good at the computer programs. I try to stay as current as possible on the business software. And I have done a few wireless networking setups, XP makes it so easy, and replaced a few hard drives. I would say I am a beginner with the hardware isssues. I am just now learning how to spell configuration.
My impression is that you make a living at this??
I enjoy it and I enjoy your input. Thanks--Bill

 

Becros52

I'd say you are a quick study and you're learning the same way I did - trial and error - bust it, fix it - read, read and read some more. Thats why I spend a fair amount of time trolling this board - have learned a lot from other's comments and its a pretty good release.

Retired (early) beverage marketing exec that got into something very different after 150,000+ miles a year, lots of pressure and too many board rooms. Started as a hobby and just keeps growing - when its no longer fun, I'll move on to something else or get back to more golf. Doing a lot of high end machines, file servers and small networks including a couple of large clients - corporate IT guys that like my stuff. Prefer to remain pretty anonymous - No advertising - all word of mouth and very selective. Not in it for the money, but don't give things away either.

Pleased to learn you have a very good handle on what you are being told and can filter fact from fiction. Also appreciate JSS3rd's commentary and geographic wisdom - used to live in that neck of the woods, 10 miles from Port Jeff as the gull flies.

Now, what happened to ehauff?

 

R2U wrote:

• "...used to live in that neck of the woods, 10 miles from Port Jeff as the gull flies. "

The gull would fly to Bridgeport CT, but that's 16 miles from PJ, so it has to be as the crow flies, somewhere on the Island.

10 miles? Hmmm, most likely candidates would be Kings Park, Hauppauge, Medford, or the east side of Rocky Point. How'm I doin' so far? I lived in Setauket and Stony Brook for 33 years before buying a condo in PJS (Terryville, actually).

ehauff has left the building.

 

JSS3rd:

You're good - Westport. 10-12max - Could always see those smoke stacks on a clear day.



ehauff - what goes?

 

OK, so we're back to the gull.

MS Streets and Trips makes it exactly 20 miles from Port Jeff to Westport CT, so you probably were looking at the Northport stacks (four, of equal height, compared to two tall and one short at Port Jeff). Westport, BTW, is (or used to be) a much nicer town than PJ.

If you were speaking of Westport NY, on the other hand, it's 225 miles from Port Jeff, and you wouldn't see the stacks at either PJ or Northport.

I don't think ehauff wants to talk to us. Were we too hard on him? He was stubborn, I'll give him that!

 

Im back. Said to heck withit and bought a new board with built in raid. Up and working in a hour. Its a Giga-byte board. Some people say it is a bad board but so far no problems. Love all the features. Raid is working perfect. Just what i had thought. Thanks for all the help.