Avg.

Let us not get into who is right or wrong. That is not what this is about.

If it were I would say he is wrong about Norton software. And all because he had problems and I did not. Just slowing the system down a little by using a few more resources is NOT what I would really call a problem. Conflicts and/or lockups caused by programs are a problem.

Just because I dis-agree does not make the other guy wrong. Or even intend to say so.

Your way may be right for you. My way may be right for me. Reboots way may be right for him.

It is about our own assement of and/or experiences with various software, setups and/or use of same.

I myself would have no problem with putting NAV back on this machine. Not that I intend to because I do prefer standalone programs. And AVG does seem to be doing OK.

BillyBob

 

Say what ??? I do believe you are correct in the point.

But we may have a mis-understanding here

But who said anything about the Router blocking the LAN. Or at least I did not intend to imply that.

That is a job for the Software Firewall.

The kid was getting into this machine via a game. That I had given that machine permission to access. So I just blocked that with NIS.

When my Wife and I play games between PCs BOTH machines must allow the other access. I had to reset about 7 of them after I re-install NIS the other day.

And the Router also keeps the Internet and the LAN separated.

Get XP (or 2K) and set up some security. Don't expect 98 to secure anything. It can't, and don't get me started on WinME.

I do not think XP will provide any more protection than a well configured 98SE. NOTHING goes out of ( or in case of the LAN IN ) this machine unless I allow it too. In fact I was messing around the other day and blocked myself from even getting onto the Internet. That generated a few choice words untill I realized what I had done.

So do not ry to tell me that 98SE can not be secured. Because I will 100% dis-agree with you.

OH MAN. Do I ever agree about not getting into ME.

Don't get on my case about outgoing stuff.
Just what is it that you're so worried is outgoing? Do you think it's your credit card numbers? Personal email to your mistress?

For starters. Windows Media Player. Quicktime. Real player. And a whole load of other Microsoft stuff and other installed software that wants to phone home if allowed. If it had not been for NIS Firewall GATOR would have been trying to get out the other day. Where that came from I have NO idea. But more than likely from some web site.

The ONLY thing that I allow to phone home as soon as installed is Anti-Virus software. That I consider a must do.

But I will tell you this much I did some VERY FAST reg cleaning.

And last but not least. I DO NOT HAVE File and Printer Sharing bound to TCP/IP. Do not need it.

And as I believe you all ready know I do not use Outlook Express. it is not even on the machine(s). Net Meeting & MSN are gone also.

BillyBob

 

OH BTW.

With NIS installed I had one heck of a time ( till I got it right ) getting our Friend in Canada and my machine hooked up so we could play Golf. I was missing a step that kept going to the Taskbar and kept missing.

I needed premisson to get out and had to give him permission to get it.

This applied even when I had the HUB.

That is the stuff that a Firewall will do that the Router won't.

BB

 

Wait...we're not quite on the same page.

I didn't say anyone was wrong, sorry if I came across that way.
(note to self: use more smiley's, it helps)

Your quote: "Plus the Router will not block others on a LAN from getting in. "
My quote: "A router will not block others on the lan from getting in... "
It's just the way you mentioned a 10yr old was getting in via a game. I kinda thought that was the whole idea.

Games do require some ports open, for both in and out. A router is not really set up to prevent games from operating, it's not designed for LAN/single machine security, except from the internet. LAN security is up to the OS/Software.

98's security is a joke. Without NIS (or other good software firewall) it's an open book, on the LAN or internet.
Without going into the details of TCP/IP, NetBEUI, filesharing permissions, and unbinding portions of the network. (mostly WAY over the heads of new users, and confusing at least)
XP's filesharing/LAN security can be so tight, it's usually difficult for new users to figure out how to even share a printer.

WMP, Quicktime, Realplayer, et al usually have options to turn OFF the "phone home" stuff. If they don't, they don't get installed on any machine's I own.

Check your browser's security settings. If you got Gator somewhere, you must have selected to install it for some reason. If you didn't consciously choose to install it, then something (or someone) installed it without your knowledge.

A hub is nothing more than a splitter, to connect multiple system's to one common connection, and share over a LAN. There is no security. A router provides security from the internet, and only on a LAN if it's set up to do that. Most SOHO routers do not provide any LAN security.

The point of all this is to inform other users (at least the ones that bother to read threads this long) about what works, and what doesn't. Some stuff (software) is not worth the download time, let alone the purchase price. Other stuff is almost worth it's digital weight in gold, yet provided free (in most cases) for personal use. I don't mind being the testbed for free software. If it's good, I'll say so. If it's horrible, I'll say that too.
As an "ancient" computer user/tech, with more online time than I care to count, I have some theoretically sound ideas and opinions. Not everyone likes them, and that's fine too. My presence in these (and other) forums, is to inform. A reputation is built, and (hopefully) deserved. Those of you who know who I am on other BBS's, can probably attest that I am the least confrontational person around. I call a spade a spade though, and that tends to ruffle feathers. So be it.

 

You make me swoon! Love the style - cut to the chase!

My 2¢ - 98 security is an oxymoron - at least in comparison to NT tech.

There is no way Gator should be going out unless it was installed. That would strictly be a user oversight.

NT platforms give the user much more control over what services/processes/permissions/policies/sharing are run/set or not.

I have learned more about networking in this thread here than I have in the last year.

 

I believe I mentioned a mis-understanding

Actully I do believe we are pretty much on the same page. Just maybe expressing things a little different.

I left out part of that. When doing a more thorough check I found that I ( BillyBob ) had left a drive SHARED.

As to Gator. Yes. Someone had to install it or I did indvertantly check something on the Net. With a very touchy mouse that is easy to do.

Copy & paste from one of my other replys.

You speak about XP being more secure. That could be I do not know I HATE XP And from what I have seen of and used it it don't do a thing better than 98SE. And much more of a PITA getting it to do it. When I have to have permission from the OS to make changes somebody is going to give and I do not think it will be BillyBob.

But of course I do realize that the problem may have been due to the way I installed and set it up. I do understand that it does not need to be that way. But over all right now I do not see XP as being a darn bit better. It is just that I may have to go with it in order to use newer software/hardware later on.

The Friend in Canada is using XP. At least twice during the game we have to wait about 5 minutes for his machine to stop doing something so we can continue play. And sometimes it even forces us to restart the game. ( luckly it picks up where we left off ( RESUMES ).

I agree with that.

But with XP a lot of things security wise ( along with tons of other stuff that I never use ) are already included/buitlin XP. Where I have to add them.

I just happen to like my choice better.

BUT. No matter what is or is not available. Unless used properly it is still No Good.

For one case. it does no good to have Anti-Virus and/or Firewall software installed and then turn it OFF. YES. I do know users that do that. Then came crying to me when they got a Virus. I did help that time but next time they are on their own.

BillyBob

 

Suggestion for your friend...
If he's playing online games to a trusted server/site/YOU, then turn off the security stuff.
Hit up www.blackviper.com and get him sorted!
Turn the stuff back on (if needed) after the gaming session.
Even better, have him set up two users. One for everyday use, with everything running, and another with no security, just for online/LAN/WAN gaming.
I do extensive online gaming, usuall LAN/WAN (not through a "server" like Zone or somesuch), and have a profile/user set up just for that. It's a completely pared down set of services, and no programs except games. I can leave whatever is going on in my main profile, and simply switch to the gaming profile, or logoff and log onto the gaming profile. The first idea leaves any unfinished stuff still doing something, while I'm gaming. The second makes sure that NOTHING is going to interrupt my frag session.
I have been known to game at the same time as all my kazaalite downloads are still going. Ping times suffer a bit, still, no worries.

If you're going to turn off the firewall and anti-virus, don't blame anyone but yourself if you get infected. That said, if you're only online for a dedicated game (like your golf), you don't need those services running.

BruceKrymow "98 security is an oxymoron - at least in comparison to NT tech "
That is SOOOOOO true!

 

reboot

I would try to pass on your suggestions But he is one that replies on a PAID tech to set things up.

Plus I can't tell him what to do until I learn myself. Or I think I would be ill advised to anyway.


You can give me all the ideas, suggestions or whatever and they still may not help until I actually get the Ten Fingered Bug into action and try them.

When we play we play using a direct connection. We had no Problems when we were both using SE. And we do not always have the problem in every game. He also does not have the best ISP either. Some nights it has dropped out as many as two or three times. Some nights we can play for three hours at a time. Other nights we are lucky to get one hour in without interuptions.

Really I think there are too many variables (and miles ) between us to really but the blame in one place or the other.

BTW. I can also control what does or does not run in Win98 SE.

If you're going to turn off the firewall and anti-virus, don't blame anyone but yourself if you get infected.

HHHMMM !!! That sounds very similiar to what I said to someone.

BillyBob

 

Bruce

Would you please give me some ideas to what you are referring so that I can respond. ?

Maybe even correctly.

Gotta get ready for our Golf game so may not get back here till much later.

BillyBob

 

Hi, BillyBob ~

To avoid long posting here in this long thread, please see the following links:

• Windows XP and Windows 98 compared
• Differences with Windows XP

Although the second one compares primarily XP H vs P, a majority of the NT platform features are listed, most of which is nonexistent or incapable in Win98.

 

Hey all:

FYI, based on the expert advice here, as expected/planned, I did uninstall Avast and now have AVG as my resident antivirus. BUT, one more thing...

Somewhere, and I thought it was this thread but am now pretty sure that it was another older one, where basically the same group of experts were deliberating on installing multiple antivirus components for the purpose of overlapping, supplementary scanning (what one misses the other may catch...), and which ones were best for that purpose.

Anyway, I ran across a little package that supposedly works based solely on the above noted concept, and theoretically acts as an "integrator" for multiple AV's to (...if I got this right...) incorporate the mechanisms of the various AVs into one scanning process. Well, I did do a search first and did not find where this "integrator" was discussed, so I was wondering if this was something that anyone had any input on as to it's reliability, if not even it's feasibility... I think it was called Virus Scan Integrator, link follows... http://www.handybits.com/vsi.htm

Thanks again for getting me up to speed on AV issues, key

 

Holey Moley Keywester

Get off this multiple Virus scanner kick.

If you are going to do that double up on Firewalls and Browsers and get WordPerfect to go along with the Office!

Pick a good Virus scanner, then use the online scans by Panda and Trend and you will be well covered and nothing installed or running resident. Well actually a tiny stub is installed the first time you run these.

But what about your Office/Word problem?

mike

 

Let me make something clear right from the start. This reply is in no way to say ( or imply ) that any one person is wrong. Even though I do tend to ERR on ocassion that is not my intentions.

Thank you Bruce for pointing me to another Microsoft sales pitch site.

I do not buy my cars using the ADs in the paper or what the salemen say. To me XP is a Ford. SE is my good old reliable Chey or Olds. And believe me NEWER is NOT better. And just like the cars Windows ( any version ) needs the proper installation of parts and proper maintainance.

Is more secure than ever before

Maybe and maybe not I can not confirm that. But with either one it requires things to be set up CORRECTLY.

Is the most reliable version of Windows yet

That one I say is absolute nonsense. I have had this 98SE on here for over a YEAR and never a problem. AFTER BillyBob found out what he was doing wrong and got things set up CORRECTLY. Even XP will not stop me from messing things up. And XP does not appear to to be as forgiving as SE.

I asked and was told that things like OE could be shut down but not removed completely as I do in SE. I would have to work on that.

Helps you and your staff become more productive

If may well be if that is what it is needed for.

I do not believe that a small home network needs all of the excess baggage that XP contains. And as far as getting the home LAN set up I did not find XP to be any easier. In fact a little tougher. It took me at least 1/2 a day to get mine working with XP. I can do it in ten minutes with SE. And it seems that SE behaves much better with a mixture of machines and OSs. I have had 95, 98FE and 98 SE all on the LAN and no problrms. And as long as " BillyBob the Idiot " does not leave a drive shared nobody is going to get to it.

Helps you keep in closer contact with your colleagues

Can't remark on that.

The Mutli-user part as far as I am concerned is not needed.

I can not see spending twice as many $$$ ( even though I already have ), for something that uses almost twice as much disk space. Requires a POSSIBLE reactivation to re-install if things go bad.

From what I understand XP requires almost a College education to re-install. I believe there are several menu choices ) With SE I got just one choice. Make sure AV checking is NOT LOADING. Boot to the Floppy. Type E\OPTIONS\SETUP and I am on my way. Nothing more to do other than enter the key code. Then of course I do need to make sure any MB and video drivers are re-installed. And check other drivers.

So. Whether XP is better for me than SE is ( or may well be ) 100% my ( as the user ) desicion. Right now I see no benifits to be had from XP. But, that might just change when I can get it installed PROPERLY to a clean system where I can start from scratch and built on it piece by piece.

I had roughly the same argument about 98FE vs 98SE until l got the right version of SE to install. I used the UPDATE First. ( bad choice ) Then got the UPGRADE and put it in clean and all is quite well.

Hey reboot

Our Golf game last night was 2-1/2 hours of flawless fun.

BillyBob

 

Life gets in the way of workin on my PC

responding back a post or two in this thread to mike's "Holey Moley Keywester" post...

Hey Mike:

Wellll, not going to take the valuable time to find the thread, thought it was on this forum, might have been v.dr tho, where the folks that I recognized as exceedingly knowledgeable were discussing the fact that they had more than one AV for SCANNING purposes ( "what one misses, another might catch" concept), with only one AV in place as "resident ". So, I was thinkin in terms of extra added virus protection in the form of supplementary scans, NOT mutliple resident AV's, not going there again now that I comprehend the consequences... And a reminder that I am now down to only one firewall also so quit embarassing me about that

Anyway, the Word problem you inquired about is in another thread ( "Word going south ") and the latest updates on that situation are over there for your perusal, so I won't clutter up this thread with redundant info...

I may not stay on top of things here for a while, got company coming in for a four day weekend, way too much to do to get ready -- a case of life getting in the way of workin on my PC,

Y'all have a good long safe relaxing holiday weekend, "see ya" after if not sooner...

 

BillyBob
I guess if your friend is the kind that needs to spend money on a tech for his own peace of mind, so be it. Why not point him to this forum/thread, and let him judge (advice from a fellow Canadian?)
You are so comfortable and familiar with SE (now that you've learned all it's quirks) that XP is a daunting proposition. Once you've learned XP's quirks, it's not daunting at all. I sympathize with your networking pains, as XP's security is designed to keep things secure (DUH!), so even simple filesharing can be an arduous task to set up. At least you learned something in the process, that XP delivers more peace of mind than 98, right "out of the box ". Learning something so totally new at our age is not a task to be taken lightly, however, the benefits far outweigh the downfalls.

TonyT
I totally agree. Internet security just happens to be the biggest buzzphrase at the moment. The internet is NOT full of evil demons (hackers?) that are constantly port scanning your system, looking for ways to ruin your day. There's no need. Noob's can completely ***** up a system with no outside "help" at all.

keywester
You're not paranoid, everyone is out to get you.
Forget the multiple AV, forget firewalls, forget online scans. Get your system running the way you want it, so you can enjoy using it, instead of worrying about what might mess it up. Then clone/image it, and play. If you (or something) ***** it up, format and clone/image it back. It's definitely easier on the hairline than worrying about what might happen.

BruceKrymow
One can read, and surf, and read even more, and still not have an appreciation (or hatred) for something until they've dived right in. Getting XP, installing it, and running it, ******** it up, crashing it, rebuilding it, and playing with it, are the only ways to learn it.
I never read reviews on software or OS's (especially MS ones). I get a copy, install it, and play. If I don't like it, it's gone. If I do, but want to change things, I change them. Customizing an OS (any OS) is the only way to fly.

EDIT: FYI, I was not swearing. I didn't expect the filter to take out "s c r e w "...sorry

 

Hi, Billy Bob ~

I was afraid if I didn't spell things, you would take things completely out of context.

I for one am not a fan of MS sales pitches either. My intention was to point you towards the many features NOT possible with Win98. You completely glossed over the second site which comprehensively layed that out.

There is NO argument that the NT kernel is exceedingly more stable and secure than any candystore Win9x version. XP is irrefutably more forgiving than Win98.

I have had one crash in 2½ years w/ XP compared with the regular BSOD w/ any Win9x version, especially 98. Most if not all upgraded users will attest to this.

I, too, agree that newer does not equal better. Marketing faux pas WinME - case in point. But XP is exceptional as far as available OSs go. To say it is 'absolute nonsense' is absolute nonsense in itself. That is implying that the remainder of the IT industry experts are off their rocker. (I certainly am not including MS, as I don't trust them any further than I could throw your your Chevy or Olds.)

What it boils down to, BB, is that you have been very fortunate w/ 98 and GodSpeed. I would also postulate that as the days pass as sand through my fingers, I grow resistant to change. If it ain't broke, there is no need to fix it.

 

Well good Morning reboot

Your notes to me and Bruce I believe now puts you and me very close to being in the same book. On the same page. And the same paragraph.

Thank You.

Bruce

I am prefectly satisfied with your point of view on things.

But there is no way anyone can say how ANY OS is going to behave on my machine untill I actually get it installed and see what gives.

They can tell me what it is suppsed to do or what it is capable of.

Bruce, Reboot, Joe Blow or Microsoft do not have my CPU, Motherboard or hardware attacked to same. The above combinations of items can make or break an OS right from the gitgo.

And maybe more inportant. The combination of USER and OS.

That is a deffinte OS crashing Combo.

And yes I have been fortunate with SE. Many of my Friends ( and some Prof Techs ) can not figure out how I got it to behave so nicely. But the biggest and toughest task was finding proper hardware and drivers for same. Another Combo that can make or break an OS.

I also tried to get hardware installed that HOPEFULLY will be compataple with XP.

And when I do get around to trying XP agian ( and I will ) I know where I may have may some errors and things may work out quite differently.

Improper Dual boot one mistake. It just did not go right. So before gambling on messing up what I had I dumped XP.

And unless I read ( or interpate ) wrong we have pretty much cleared up a few possible mis-understandings.

Being asked to go shopping so will catch Y'all later.

BillyBob

 

In perspective..........

BB - for the longest time, I read with amazement of your love affair for the original first release of Windows 98. Your opinions were quite strong and you lombasted 98se.

Then you discovered 98se and have since become an even stronger advocate of 98se.

Looking at your history, I'd be willing to bet you will eventually test drive XP again, swing into the XP crowd and become one of its strongest supporters.

You are to be commended for a youthful attitude tempered with seven decades of case hardened opinion.

 

Well,well. look who dropped in.

an even stronger advocate of 98se.

Yup. Once I found out that Ol' BillyBob here was the cause of some of the problems.

You are quite correct about FE to SE. But you will also read that I made comments about the wrong version of SE causing problems. But once I got the correct version and got it installed properly I liked it. Still do, and always will.

Also FE required two CDs ( the original and the SP1 ) in order to get it up to date. That got to be a big pain if a re-install was required. With SE it is all on one.

But also FE was losing support from Software and hardware venders. FE is still on one machine and doing everything this 98SE machine does. ( except USB )

And the same is happening with SE. I need to read the boxes ( very carefully ) when buying software or hardware to make sure they are still useful still with SE.

And the same may apply to XP. I do not know yet. Just like another member said. If I like it it will stay. If I don't it won't. But if it don't then I may be out of luck if I decide that I want some newer hardware or software.

So there are many reason other than personal opinions for changing the OS.

One problem with ANY OS ( and not just for me ) is getting the proper drivers. That alone can be a real PAIN. And bad drivers can have a bad effect on ANY OS. Many time I have had the ones that are supposed to work not work. But the ones that aren't supposed to work do work.

But I still do not see XP as doing anything more for me than 98SE. XP has ( I believe ) a lot more NETWORK, Audio, Video and Graphics capabilities which I DO NOT need. I have absolutely no need for the Multi User part. But I undersatnd that can be worked around at the initial install. ( I hope )

If a person will read properly they will see that SEVERAL times I have said I WILL be trying XP again once I can get another HD where I can get XP maybe installed correctly with out messing up the VERY SOLID system with which I am VERY happy.

And on that bit of info I myself will bet 10-1 that XP will behave MUCH better. I sure as heck hope so. It is kinds tough to see $189 sittin on the shelf doin nuttin.

swing into the XP crowd and become one of its strongest supporters.

Could be. Don't know. That remains to be seen.

I may have to change the OS to keep up with the times . But, that does not mean that I have to change my

If I did my next car would be a Ford.

Have youself a fine day
BillyBob