Athalon 64, X2 or not

I feel embare-assed to ask this after the preceeding conversation but due to the apparent cost of a custom-built system I am forced to at least consider a prepackaged system. My needs are not intense as serious gaming is not a need but I do need to do some video editing/rendering and multi-tasking.

Costco has a feature packed HP Pavillion a1477c-b AMD 4400+ including a 19" LCD monitor for $1,200 and would love to hear your thoughts on it. I plan on add/removing the bloatware and since it has a recovery disc, it may be my only option. I would, of course, prefer a clean install but.... Here is the link to the HP spec page-

http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/genericDocument?cc=us&docname=c00617492&lc=en&jumpid=reg_R1002_USEN

It has everything, period. And I plan to remove the modem and wireless LAN cards to at least give me 2 open PCI slots along with the 1 open PCI Express slot.

Thanks

 

Larry, my budget is also very restricted, but still I would not consider a branded computer (I know this is not what you want to hear )

Some things I have found with branded computers:
You mention bloatware, I doubt you will be able to remove it without damaging the system.
A recovery disk pretty much guarantees a reinstall when something goes drastically wrong.
Few updates are supplied as far as drivers or the BIOS are concerned.
The BIOS is limited so that you are restricted in adjustments.
Parts are puchased in bulk and are usually the the base models. I've seen ISA add-in cards when they had all but disappeared. 5400 rpm HDDs when they had all but disappeared (it's what the specifications don't tell you).
The power supply will be only big enough to run the system when you get it. If you want to upgrade it, you will find it is a special size that can only be replaced with the brand's type.
RAM will be minimal and maybe a special type that is expensive to replace or increase.
When it runs out of warranty you will find service, repairs and upgrades can only be carried out by the maker and the cost will be exceptional.
Vista will be out at the end of year. To upgrade will mean another recovery disk.

If you get a good motherboard and good parts that are important to what you want to concentrate on (eg., two fast hard disks for editing, RAM for multitasking and a good monitor if that is important), you can upgrade other parts later.

A 4400+ CPU is not the main factor for what you want to do.

Matt

 

What mattman says is perfectly legitimate. Do not make Athlon 4400+ the only consideration for system. Start with a relatively cheap CPU - say AMD 4200+ or even 3800+ but make sure that all other components are upto date and you have space for expandibility. This rules out most of the branded computers - they do not have many upgrade options available & even if they provide one they are limited & costly.

 

Found this site:
http://www.pugetsystems.com/configvidedit.php?sys_id=60
Use the configurator.

Asus K8N-DL Opteron DDR400 ECC
Dual AMD Opteron 265 1.8GHz DUAL CORE
1GB DDR400 REG ECC (2x512MB)
Antec 1650 Mid-Tower 350W (black)
Seagate SATA II 250GB
Asus GeForceFX 6200TC 128MB (shared) PCI-E
Lite On 16X Dual Layer DVD+RW/-RW w/ Software (black)
Windows XP Home SP2
Standard 3 Year Limited Warranty

$1920.93

A specialized video editing machine (no monitor) that is completely upgradable. Does not have recovery disks. Has quality parts,etc,etc.

If you start without the dual core option and look to upgrade later, price is $1,490.12.

This will not be a "toy" like the HP. It will see you through many years of service and be able to "grow" with your needs. You will need to run with your current monitor and save for a new one (read what they say about dual monitors for video editing here). If you have parts that you can transfer (eg., a DVD writer or a retail version of Win XP) you can ask them to leave those out (see Submit for Review at the bottom of the page).

This is the first company I came across. If I get time I see if there are others.

EDIT: That RAM may be for Pentium systems (there is notification box about RAM). You may find that the AMD system does not need registered ECC type and may work out cheaper.

Matt

 

Larry:

I think Mattman would like to take you from a Nash Rambler and put you in a Rolls Royce - without the obscene price differential that would be expected for this kind of huge performance differential. Having said that, I'm not so sure that a dual processor motherboard (referenced in Mattman's video editing machine) isn't a little extreme, but having two dual core Opterons might just qualify you for Dreamwork's design team if you lose interest in that day job.

The HP system you have referenced includes that a1477b desktop with a 19" monitor and although the price looks pretty good for what you are getting, if you look inside the case, there's a little more to the story. Don't get me wrong - I'm sure this would be a decent system but its a micro ATX motherboard with onboard graphics and the new Radeon Xpress 200 chipset. This is designed as a budget system and its primary weak point appears to be graphics. Google the ATI chipset and research this some more before you make any decisions. This is a brand new chipset that has just been released to OEMs. I'd have a tough time endorsing this system as your best $1200 choice.

What you need to understand is that most who frequent this board and post from time to time in the hardware section are not strong supporters of retail computer systems. Yes, there is a mix of do-it-yourselfers with varying levels of experience and most build our own systems while some build systems for all comers. It follows that the opinions one is going to get here are going to be biased. I think its fair to say that if one is looking for a $400 computer, most of us would send you down to the local store with a Sunday newspaper ad. Similarly, when one can spend $1000 or more, you won't find a retail machine that is going to hold a candle to what you can build yourself.

But wait - there's more to it than that. I think its safe to say and I'll take on all comers here - when you build it yourself, you will have a whole new appreciation for and understanding of computers. Its an experience that is difficult to describe, but those who have taken this route know exactly what I'm talking about. Maybe you fit that mold and maybe you don't - thats what the real decision is all about.

 

Okay, okay...maybe a little "dreamworks" on my behalf. Certainly would be a great video editing machine and if Larry may be interested future expansion into this area (hobby?) I would not discount it. It is not a gaming machine, but I think it would work well with Vista (by the sound of it...and...Vista would work well with it) for the tasks Larry is looking for.
Larry, play with that configurator. You can see what hardware is suggested as working together for the tasks you want. Look at the "64bit Dual Processor Computer" section of that website for basic configurations. For video editing and multitasking you should concentrate on getting a good motherboard (did I mention this? ) reasonable CPU, good HDD access (put two 80Gb drives into the configurator) and a reasonable amount of RAM (1 Gb plus, unless you want to multitask large programs).

Sorry, maybe a large amount of technical information to digest. If you see a configuration you think will work well, research further.

I may have been hard on the HP system, but you cannot buy a "general" system and ask it to do special tasks. I think you would be very disappointed.

Matt

 

Hi guys, you are relentless.....and thanks!!! I understand where you are coming from as I have never bought a pre-packaged system before but finances make me more flexible, all of a sudden.

I went to my local chop shop where I bought my last 3 systems and they put together this (hey Mattman, this is for you!):

AMD 4200+
1 Gb RAM (1 stick)
ATI All-In-Wonder 2006 256 Mb- PCI Express
250Gb SATA2 16Mb HDD
Athena 500W Mid-Tower Case CA-413BA
Gigabyte K8N-Pro SLI Mobo (w/ 1394)
13 in 1 Card reader
LiteOn 16x Dual Layer DVD
LiteOn DVD-Rom
MCE 2005
On-Board Sound and Lan
No Monitor

1 Yr Warranty

$1,360 + tx

Options I am considering:
1 more Gb of Ram +$90 (now up to $1,450)
74Gb Raptor HDD +$160 (now up to $1,610)
Sound Card +$40 (least important) (now up to $1,650 + tax)... without a monitor!! OUCH


I also did more research on the HP (blasphlemy). I found out that the mobo on the HP is the MS-7184. I would like to know your thoughts on it as I am still considering the HP.

HP Mobo MS-7184

Thanks again, Lar

 

LarryB

Do yourself a favor - go price all of this at NewEgg and see what you can put this together for yourself. As to specifics, you might want to substitute an MSI neo motherboard without SLI and if you are going to be doing video editing, two HDD's would be a real plus. You also need to get some specifics on memory - what kind of memory and what model - good memory can be had for a pretty good price these days and it pays to stick with the best that one can afford. With only one module on that NForce 4 board, you can't take advantage of dual channel speed so I'd call that a shortcoming of the shop's quote - it makes me suspect of their giving you maximum bang for the buck. Raptors are good drives, no argument and I use them but they aren't the end all either. Lastly, that 13 in 1 reader - is that a combination floppy/13 in 1? I'd make sure you have a floppy drive ($7) because its needed to load SATA drivers. A 13 in 1/floppy combo can be had for about $20. Also look at the Lite On lightscribe DVDRW drive - a dual layer but their newest technology.

It would be a great educational experience for you to price this out and read the reader reviews along the way. Regardless, take your time and continue doing your research - you made a good decision in staying away from that Costco HP offering.

 

Rockster2U- The idea of building my own sys from scratch is enticing but I don't have the time for it. Newegg seems to sell only parts.

What do you mean by the NForce4 chipset having only one module with regards to the x2 processor?

 

AMD 939 family CPU's have a feature called 'Dual Channel Memory Access'. This feature gives you a boost of around 10-20% in throughput. For it to be enabled, the RAM has to be installed on the motherboard in (matched) pairs for example 2 x 512 MB, 2 x 1GB & so on. If the motherboard has only 1 RAM socket, it cannot support Dual channel.

 

LarryB

Close but no cigar.

I didn't say "NForce4 chipset having only one module with regards to the x2 processor " Those are your words.

I did say "With only one module on that NForce 4 board, you can't take advantage of dual channel speed "

As articulated above by rsinfo, one has to use a minimum of two sticks of memory (one on each channel) to take advantage of the dual channel memory capabilities of the NVidia NForce4 chipset. The fact that the shop you visited only spec'ed out one 1Gig module for the system you referenced could be a cause for some skepticism. Thats all I was trying to convey - no big deal or cause for major concern - just something that raises a question mark in this author's opinion.

 

OH! It was totally me. I had spec'd it to make future expansion easier but maybe just putting in 2x1Gb now would make more sense than 2x512Mb.

Thanks for your patience.

"Close but no cigar" , that is funny (and tolerant).

 

That motherboard is built specifically for branded computers, HP, Compaq and Emachines. As I said before, it is what the specifications don't tell you. Check through my list. There are no reviews or comparisons for it. Put up against even a reasonable "built" I don't think there would be much comparison. Larry, when you took it out of the box and even with the bloatware hanging around in the background, you would be able to surf the net and run some normal programs. It would also make a decent business machine where programs don't come and go. Once you added your own hardware and software, that's when "ordinary" parts will start to take effect (I think you would be very disappointed trying to do video editing). It may do V/E but not in the way you expect. It is not made to do that. It may have a powerful processor and dual channel RAM, but if the motherboard is made of base model components they will be pretty much useless. It may not go any better than if it had 1 stick of 512Mb RAM and a 3000+ Sempron (this is actually what I have found comparing branded computers to those I have built).

The "package" comes with an LCD monitor. I would expect that the monitor would work out to about 1/3 of the total cost. Imagine how much was spent on the rest.

You could get it if you wanted to, I think you would find that you would get what you pay for though.

As you can see, we are trying to encourage you to research the parts and put them together as a "personalised" piece of equipment that will do the tasks that you ask of it, now and some way into the future.
Comments:
Yes, two sticks of (dual) RAM will be important.
You need video capture, unless you already have a video capture card, in which case any video card with two outputs will let you run two monitors or one monitor and a TV connection (see that video editing info I linked to).
If you are going to start "small ", (from rsinfo) even a 3800+ processor will do the job for the moment. After a year or so the higher frenquencies will have dropped in price (you may find you never need much more and the 3800 will do fine ).
Two HDDs. You want to read the video files off one HDD and write it onto the other. On that comparitor it looked like two 80Gb SATA IIs cost less than one 250Gb. Will 160Gb be enough, probably, if you were not going to store videos, just burn them after editing.
A reasonable case will be needed unless you may want to upgrade it later (finicky to change). The base model of a good brand will be fine.

Suggestion,try to get an Asus motherboard if you can I have gone off Gigabyte mobos since I now have two with leaky capacitors and a previous Asus is still going strong. You would only need SLI if you wanted to do gaming. Avoid integrated graphics, they are only for basic models and take up resources that should be handled by a separate graphics system. I like VIA chipsets on a motherboard, they have always worked well for me. Nvidia might be the fastest, but are a pain if there is a problem.

Don't get MCE unless it is the focus of an entertainment system (remote control stuff). I'm sure you will only have headaches.

I think you could trim that price down a lot if you want to look at upgrading some parts later (and you may find the system is adequate anyway, at least you will have that option).

Do your reseach!

Matt

 

Motherboards from ASUS are good & so are from MSI, Gigabyte. I have faced the leaky capacitors problem in quite a few boards from different manufacturers (including ASUS). I think it depends on the lot & not on the manufacurer of the board since most of them pick their components from more or less the same producers.

SLI is a good investment at least for the future but is more inclined towards game playing & is troublesome right now. A single PCIe socket would also be fine.

 

Gentlemen, open the beer. It's Miller time.

OK.
Fact. The HP is going back to Costco.
Fact. A custom built may be too expensive.
Fact. I can putter with the best but building from scratch is a problem.

How hard is it? Now that you have convinced me of the righteousness of your case, how do we live with it?? I don't want to become a (greater) pain but my weaknesses are in the initial set up with the mobo, installing Windows and the like. After that, I can install boards, drives, etc.

If Newegg is the best place, then I can do that.

My last 2 mobo's have been ASUS but they are pricey and the new cpu fans are not well regarded. What are your thoughts about other mfg like MSI, Gigabyte, Abit, ... I have found that 1394 is not as prevelant as I assumed it to be. I would also like a header with firewire and S-Video but is that just plain anal or is it doable (sp?)? Does one have to stick with whatever header is included in the case? Apparently, the only applicable mobo that is non-SLI with 1394 is the MSI K8N Neo4 Platinum (hats off to R2U).

Do I have to play with the mobo (jumpers, pins, etc) or are they basically good out of the box? Do they come with mounting hardware? Etc, etc.

Is there a simple primer that you can point to for dumbshts like me?

Thanks to all, Lar

 

LarryB

Larry, I like your style -

Thank you for offering up something refreshing to go with that cigar.

If you want to go this way, I'll stick with you until successful completion and I'm sure many others will gladly make the same pledge and a similar commitment. I won't get to it until tonight, but I'd be glad to post a parts list that hits my own hot buttons for a general purpose machine tailored for advanced video editing and I'd recommend a budget of roughly $1600 for what I have in mind. First things first though - Its your money so you need to set the budget. I do think that MSI K8N Neo4 Platinum is the right place to begin -

One other criteria - hold your hands out in front of you and count your thumbs. Please post back .......... if the answer is anything other than two then we need to be realistic regarding your ability to hold a screwsdriver (yes, mispelled on on purpose to beat the filter). Modern computers are made up of interchangeable components, so if you already are comfortable with "installing boards, drives, etc. ", this isn't going to be anything you can't handle.

Timewise, if you are going to order from NewEgg, you'll have parts within three business days and I would anticipate two evenings for your build and one evening for your installation. Throw in a little delay for any questions and some posting and you may be looking at a week to a week and a half maximum.

I look forward to your comments.

 

Allright!! I am ready. I will state where I am at, please comment.

My idea of $1,600 includes a 19" monitor, pref DVI input- at least 12ms.

My best bet for a case is PC Club or Fry's so I can see what I am getting. Min 400W PSU.

In fact, I can buy a lot at PC Club. Most of their prices are close to Newegg's and I like the idea of frequenting my local shop (I am kind of anti-big box).

HDD's- I figure an 80Gb for the software and 250-300Gb for the data. Sata 2. Does brand matter? Maxtor, Seagate, WD? I have Partition Magic 8 to chop up the big one.

DVD-rw- Most people are happy with LiteOns, non Lightscribe. DVD-rom drive, as well. Other brands?

Card Reader, either 3.5" or USB. I already have a USB Floppy.

Memory. Prob shoot for 2x1Gb (will ck out cost, back off to 2x512Mb if $$$). I understand that Mushkin is the best but Crucial is supposed to be good. What else? PNY? Kingston? Old Fedcal (local L.A. joke)?

I am thinking of getting the new ATI All-In-Wonder 2006 PCI Express board. Reviews look good (but not a screamer). I hate big, bad corporate ATI that thinks customer support goes as far as FAQ's....but their boards stand alone in filling certain gaps (TV, Vid Capture and Graphics).

I may pick up a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz PCI just to sweeten the sound a bit. Low cost, low priority.

CPU- I figure the 4200+ as it is only $50 more than the 3800+. Where is the best place to buy? (please don't confuse me with the Opteron stuff. I don't OC--- should I?).

CPU Fan- Does the mobo come with one?? Good enough?

Cables- Does the mobo come with them?? Flat, round?

OS- XP Pro. Is there actually a cheap place to procure?? I need a XP Home, too, to reformat my current W98se 1Gb P3 puter. OEM or retail?

I do ebay, BTW.

That is it for me. Brain empty, tummy empty. Thanks!!!!!!

 

The MSI K8N Neo4 Platinum webpage:
http://www.msicomputer.com/product/p_spec.asp?model=K8N_Neo4_Platinum&class=mb
Supported memory is on the left-hand side. From the memory table, 2 or 4 modules of double-sided will only run at 333Mhz. Be sure to get single-sided.

PC Club don't stock that model.

Matt

 

Thanks Matt. Firstly, what brands are "gud enuf" besides Mushkin? Then I will shop. Single-sides sounds more expensive.

EDIT: On the other hand, I just called MSI and their tech support said that as long as I use just 2 sticks, dbl sided is ok for DDR-400. That is verified by their memory chart on their website.

MSI K8N_Neo4_Platinum

 

I'd prefer to see you go with OCZ low latency or Corsair XMS low latency. Mushkin made great SDRAM but is only now getting back into the game with DDR and DDR2 offerings worth looking at.

Monitor-wise, this is worth looking at for $239 on sale today. http://www.directron.com/al1916w.html

Processor wise and I guess this is where it all started, I'll still recommend the opteron 165 with a 1MB cache on each of two cores which is very overclockable to FX60 speed. Its $325 at NewEgg.

Heatsink/CPU Cooler. This is a great buy at $38. You can get the aluminum copper combo for $10 less, but this puppy is the real thing and will suit you well when we get you cranking up that opteron to its real operating speed.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835118119

You already beat me to the punch with those lite-on opticals - DVDRW and DVD. Thats what I use exclusively.

I'd also buy an internal floppy drive for another $7-8 because I don't like the concept of an external floppy and most likely you'll need a non-usb floppy to get your sata drivers loaded painlessly.

Video card - again, I think you already nailed it as far as right church, but you headed for the wrong pew. Take a look at the ATI 100-714400 All-In-Wonder Radeon X1800XL. $309 after a $30 rebate. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814102642

HDD's - I like the Samsungs for price/performance and one can't beat their warranty. I'd grab a couple of these 250 Gig drives at $85 each. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822152025
Then you might want to add a removable drive bay and pick up a 250Gig IDE drive. We'll come back to that later.

As far as a case, I'd recommend an aluminum Thermaltake Tsunami as first choice and unless you want to paint drive covers, go with Black instead of the silver. Then you can get Black opticals, a black floppy, a black removable bay or two and a black card reader. You can buy this with a PSU or without. Yes, a little pricey but one gets what they pay for and this case is the epitomy of that saying. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811133138
Personally, I'd buy this without the PSU and grab an Antec Neo Power or a high end Aspire PSU but the 400W PSU that comes with the case in the link will be quite sufficient too.

As to cables - shop at SVC. They have excellent prices and great shipping. You can also find a 13-in-1 card reader for that open 3.5" slot there. And, you might want to think about some lights or fans with lights. The Tsunami comes with two 120mm fans and an 80mm fan which will handle the necessary air movement but if you want to dress this up some, you'll find excellent fan prices here too.

OK, that about does it for now. I'm sure this will bring a bevy of other suggestions so I'll move on for a while. This should get you started.