Dell, ATX connector non-standard

Found this while surfing some computing news sites. Seems Dell uses a proprietary pin out on it's power supplies and motherboards. Thus, the unknowing owner of a Dell system w/ this setup could cause him/herself quite some grief if only one of the two components is replaced with an off the shelf item!

Here's the story http://www.ttgnet.com/rbt/daynotes/2002/2002-16.html

Tin

 

this is not new news. Dell, Compaq, Gateway, IBM, and other big PC manufacturers use custom motherboards and power supplys. If you want to build your own PC, great. Go for it. You will probably save money in the end.
If you want a good, fast PC that is reliable and comes with a warranty, then pick one of the above manufacturers.

 

Well, its news to me. And apparently to many others as well, else why the effort to make it known?

The way I understand it, if a box is built to a standard, in this case ATX, that means that it MEETS that standard. Else, why have a standard? There were follow-up emails at theinquirer.net by owners who had experienced this and other problems. E.g., pci cards that did not match the slots in the case. Mfgr's solution, buy a new case?

What kind of **** is that! I don't care who they are or how big they are. If they build to a standard, then their product should meet that standard! If they want to build proprietary machines, fine, but they should not hide the fact that an upgrade will me more expensive because of it. I can't speak for everyone else, but if I wanted that I'd buy from Apple and pay thru the nose for any and every upgrade I might want or need.

Let's see if I understand correctly. If you happen to be Joe Sixpack and don't have the time, or patience, or knowledge, or whatever to build your own mackine and you buy from one of "the above manufacturers ", don't expect to upgrade unless you buy parts that fit our proprietary systems. Because we build good, fast, reliable systems with a warranty the standards that were written to make PC computer parts interchangable don't apply to us. Oh, you didn't know that when you made the purchase? Well, too bad. We already have your money, now, to install that new sound card you'll need a new motherboard, power supply and case. Would you like to place an order?

Disillusioned,
Tin

 

I'm not sure about the other manufacturers, but I do know that Dell follows the PCI standard. I have used Dells for many years, and I can use any standard PCI card in them. I can also use a standard power cord with them. I couldn't care about swapping out a motherboard with a non-Dell motherboard, and if I did, I sure wouldn't call Dell about the power supply mismatch. I would buy a new power supply.
Most people that work on there own systems don't buy a Dell and then modify it. Mostly because it would cost to much.
If you buy a Dell and want to add a different modem or video card, go for it. I know it will work, unless you buy the low end system that wasn't meant to be customized.
You can save yourself a lot of headache by researching before you buy.

 

I totally agree with this for a new machine and especially for a used machine (more likely to break down).

A few years ago I picked up a used IBM for my kids only to have the mother board go out within a week. IBM wanted about $750 for a new board so I went to a local shop and bought a new mini tower and mother board for for about $130, took the rest of the parts from the IBM and had a perfectly good little machine!

 

OK, maybe I wasn't clear with the point I'm trying to make. First, the pci card problem was not a Dell system. Doesn't matter who made the system. The point is someone built a box that had this problem. Same for the ATX pinout problem. The point is ...what good are standards if some mfgrs. ignore them?

Eric, what "you" would or would not do with a Dell machine is irrelevant. The average man and wife go to Best Buy to purchase a computer for their children to aid them with their school work (that was the reason for the HP 486 I bought quite a few years ago). To what extent do they research prior to the purchase? Where will they find the information about non-standard pinouts on the ATX connector? How knowledgable about computing must they be to use the information if they find it?

So they make the purchase and a year or two from now they discover that the hottest new game needs a faster cpu. They do the research to upgrade and find that they will also need a new motherboard to handle the new cpu. Surprise! the ATX connector does not work on the new motherboard or worse yet, it damages the new board.

I have no problem with mfgrs. using their own methods assembling computers. I just think that along with the slick advertising there should be an acknowledgment that ...oh, by the way if you buy this product and ever decide to upgrade any part of it, you should call us first. Because, there is a high probability that what you want to do can't be done without some additional expense due to our deviation from industry standards when building this computer.

Kevin, had you known the potential monetary risk when you where making the decision to purchase the IBM machine would you have made the purchase anyway? With this experience, would you buy another? What would you have done if you didn't have the knowledge to make the change to the mini tower?

caveat emptor,
Tin

 

The average man and wife that you so proclaim would go to Best buy and pick up a computer would probably go right back to Best Buy to buy a new one when they wanted the upgrade.
Also most manufacturers won't offer you any support if you are gonig to swap motherboards in your system.
I also find it highly unlikely that the "average man and wife" would go to Best Buy to buy a computer would then be able to upgrade the motherboard/ cpu, memory, hard drive, and what ever else needs to be done to upgrade the system. They would rather spend $600 dollars on a new PC that they know will work, and can then migrate their existing data from their old machine to the new one.

 

Dell & ATX

This copied from web....

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
Dell does not make generic ATX boxes - this is well known throughout the industry. Customers that would be affected by this are up graders, and the reality is that only a very small percentage of users will actually attempt this type of upgrade. We have made many improvements to the original ATX standard to meet the growing needs of customers over time. Companies like Intel are helping to drive an industry standard specification surrounding this.

 

I'm with TinKnocker on this one. Tell us again ....... all of the majors are putting out good, fast reliable equipment? Thanks Dude.

 

After reading the link Tinknocker points to, I have to agree with him. Most people would not replace their own mother board, but most small shops and knowlegable people would replace a dead or noisy power supply with a generic one if their computer was out of waranty. Having a non-standard power supply configured to fit the pins of a standard motherboard (or vice-versa)is a remedy for disaster.

 

I was in a local but well known store to purchase my Router. The Manager and I have been Friends for quite some time.

They sell a well known brand of PC.

We got into the discussion about users having problems with trying to make changes to a machine of that make. He told me right then and there.

" Each model has its own special MotherBoard and intergrated components etc. And they are not designed for changes to be made. "

In fact, If I do go into that store I have to be VERY carefull that I get an item that IS NOT designed for the machines that they sell.

Some things are universal and some things are not.

BillyBob

 

BillyBob:

That's Tinknocker's whole point and a good one too. Its kind of like General Motors coming out with a new type of fastener head that "normal tools" aren't compatable with. This keeps most of their business in Mr. Goodwrench's garage.

The problem with this is, the consumer gets ******* or (torxed).

Case in point: I just fixed one Compaq that went through an electrical storm and didn't fair too well. PIII that was just out of warranty. New "Tawainese OEM" motherboard cost $248 with RMA return of the old board. The hell with that. Put in a better MSI board, 250 Watt power supply and a CPU cooling fan (yeah - Compaq never had one). Cost - less than $70 - brand new components.

Case in point 2: Just sold a new machine to a Compaq user who took his machine to 3 shops, bought a new OEM power supply and was told he still needed a new MB. It still didn't run. I gave him $100 for the thing, salvaged the PIII processor, 128mb memory, DVD drive, CDRW, floppy and combination modem w/ daughter audio card. Threw the rest away. He still came out ahead versus buying a new OEM MB and paying for labor and software installation at most shops.

Now we get Dell using an ATX power header with switched power cabling. If they were "nice guys" they also would have used proprietary male and female power headers - its not like they don't have the volume to do this without a cost penalty.

So, how many machine do you think are going to be ******* up once they are "Out of Warranty" and fixed by someone's "friend who knows a lot about computers "?

Read it however, but these guys are getting pretty greedy in my book. And, they used to make some good equipment but don't look under the hood these days.

 

I think I am preaching to the choir here, but proprietary machines just tick me off.

I think where the average family gets burned by these proprietary machines is when Jr realizes the machine that mom and dad bought is an underpowered POS that won't play the latest games. He hits the internet and decides to upgrade some components without realizing that it may not be as simple as he thinks. Just take a look on this BBS on any day of the week and there usually at least one person asking how to disable on-board sound or video.

And of course Rockster2U brings up the "friend who knows a lot about computers ". Always trouble. People take alot more risks with other peoples machines.

But I am guilty of telling certain friends of mine to "buy a Dell" on occasion. When someone asks me what to buy. I will size up what they say they want to use their machine for and then (based on what I know about them) I decide what the chances are that they will ever upgrade the machine. Of course this doesn't take into consideration what happens if something fries after the warranty expires.


Hex92

Dude, don't buy a Dell.

 

Buying a new computer or any product it is the consumer's responsibility to know or be aware there are product differentiations. There is, nor has there been any misrepresetation! People may have been taking things for granted or wishful thinking. Does anyone believe in a competitive market, businesses would not differentiate there product? I own a Buick La Sabre; would I or anyone else with a similar product go to a Ford business for a new part?

If the desired product becomes overpriced and rebuilding becomes economically feasible, the manufacturer or price maker will lower the price to meet consumer's choice. In their own self-interest, they will not go out of their way to make the competive choice to rebuild cheaper than their own product!

The price of my new Dell is less expensive than rebuilding my previous Dell computer if time and possible aggravation is considered. The price to rebuild or the price of the new computer is near equilibrium when all is considered. That is the market forces at work as it should be.

 

Ouch !!.

I can not count ( and won't even try ) how many times that one or the other of the mentioned items has gotten the part of my body that I sit on in trouble. Not only with Computers but in real life. Computers are somewhat easy to fix. But in real life taking something ( or someone ) for granted can have long lasting effects.

This is what happens all to often. Users buy a new PC and think that once the warrenty is off they can make changes.

The party that I referred to in my previous reply said that 90% of the machines that they get for fixing is due to this.

KenKeith is correct. You do not go to Ford for Buick parts.

You also do not ( or at least it not a good idea to ) put generic parts in an Olds 88. It can ( and did ) turn out to be more costly then going to the Olds dealer in the first place.

Same basic rules apply to Computers.

It is not that that OEM machines are substandard. I do not believe they are.

But it is a FACT ( just like cars ) that each one has its own way of doing things. And parts from one ( or generic parts ) may not work.

And as KenKeith also pointed out. With both Computers and cars there is a point at which it is no longer feasable ( or sensible ) to rebuild. I am at that point with one of my machines right now. It will not handle a newer HD and the CPU and the BIOS have become just plain USELESS as far as new software goes. And the BIOS is not upgradeable either.

It also has one HD with a whole bunch of bad sectors on it. ( That is the part that really concerns me ) I am just hoping ( and PRAYING ) that it holds out till I can get the $$ to upgrade.

BillyBob

 

BillyBob,
You present relevant examples. It does appear to be a lack of convergence as individual computer makers want to distinquish their product to gain brand loyality vs. a consumer who would like to have universal simplicity to upgrade and cheap generic componments. It is not in the best interest for the business to move in that direction unless their is a competitive advantage to do so. There is an economic incentive to avoid that circumstance so I suspect that won't happen.

 

Phew ....... my head is spinning and I don't have boots tall enough to avoid the BS. The original beef here was with some large, un-named, Austin-based company that was using standardized ATX power connectors in a non-standard configuration. This has nothing to do with ?%*? (convergence) #&**?

ATX is an industry standard. Appearantly, this manufacturer has chosen not to follow that standard. For those who own these machines and some who attempt to repair or upgrade them, this "trick wiring" could result in considerable frustration and unnecessary damage.

To suggest or infer that "cheap generic components" are now dificult to install, thus protecting the integrity of the equipment and reputation of the manufacturer is a flawed arguement. With the exception of their high end equipment, this un-named manufacturer is using stuff that falls into your "cheap generic component" category.

My question remains unanswered. Why wouldn't this manufacturer change the male and female connectors instead of using standardized ATX headers. There is no cost penalty given their volume of injection molded pieces.

It reminds me of another Austin based company, Netpliance, that reversed the pinouts on their IDE cable headers to keep users from installing HDD's in a SansDisk QNX based Internet Appliance. When that didn't work, they changed the bin files in the bios so it wouldn't boot from a HDD and then they epoxied the bios chip. When that didn't work, they tried torqlox screws and started clipping pins off the IDE header. It was interesting scenario until they went out of business. It hardly stopprd anybody who knew what they were doing.

Back to the subject.

So who suffers from this "trick wiring "? - their very own customer, John Q. Customer. Now you tell me where the wisdom is in this "innovative" strategy. Thank you for your anticipated response.

 

Hi guys,

Boy, miss a week and things happen around here. Thought that leaving KK with the last word would allow the thread to just die on the vine.

Must say I am pleased to see more participation. Sometimes when I begin a thread, I'm looking to stir the pot. To get people thinking and hopefully to respond and offer their views or at least to keep up with the thread.

Didn't have any good MS bashing to offer but thought this might serve a dual purpose. Have seen plenty of posters w/ Dell systems and until I read about this Dell/ATX thing I had no idea that their connector pinouts were not standard. So maybe the next time someone posts a question about a Dell upgrade those who have read this thread can help them avoid a potentially bad experience.

Still stand by on my position. Rockster probably did a better job with his suggestion that the Dell connector not mate w/ one that meets the ATX standard. That's certainly an easier sollution to expect from Dell than what I proposed.

Can't say that I agree with the automobile analogies. But then seldom do these types of analogies apply to computing. No, would not take a Ford to a GM dealer. As I would not ask Gateway to repair my Dell ( if I had one). But I would take my Ford to Mr. Goodwrench and I would take my Dell (if I owned one) to a local computer repair shop.

Ain't this fun,
Tin

 

Although the auto anology isn't without some inconsistent factors (they are a mutured industry!), the point I am trying to make is that manufacturers of a product( as the industry evolves) in a competitve marketing environment will attempt to distinquish and differentiate their product. Marketing 101. There is not much money or a future in producing a clone!

There has not been much of a product differentiation in software as M/S has prevented easy access into the O/S software by unfair business tactics. A recent court decision.

But as an example, without commenting on its product, and although not a barnburning success financially (may be a management problem) Apple continues to distinquish its product. In the long run, will it be successful? I don't know. But a clone enterprise, in my opinion, doesn't have a very good chance of surviving.

 

Welcome back Tinknocker, did your forget to bring along your thinking cap! I believe the discussion relates to generic parts and proprietary systems and/or any parts thereof.

Your Mr. Goodwrench comment misses the point and doesn't make sense in the context of this thread unless Mr. Goodwrench replaces a highly successful GM 3800 engine and/or part with a generic, or a Ford engine and/or part, that is better and cheaper.