WinXP Home not on Win98SE Network

I have a cable modem hooked to a hub that is hooked to another hub with 5 desktop and one occasional laptop networked with all running Win98SE. Four separate printers are connected to those machines and shared throughout the network. All the machines are located in the same room and all are firewalled with ZoneAlarm-free version. I bought a Dell Inspiron 8100 w/built in NIC 10/100 and WinXP Home. Installed the home networking on the Dell. Did not install ICS. Did install Zone Alarm. Network connections are all fine. LAN connect shows up in the appropriate workgroup. EVERTHING connects to the internet. EVERYTHING checks fine through GRC.com /// "Shields Up ".
BUT...
The XP Dell can't "see" any of the W98 machines. They can't see the XP machine. The XP Dell can see all my neighbors computers on the cable modem. The Win 98 machines do not. Ping fails both ways. It's kind of like the XP machine is on a separate network with the cable modem folks and the w98 network is isolated to itself. If it were not for the fact of the printer access and file transfer capability (I know, I've gotten lazy!) but I don't want to return to the "sneaker network" on the XP alone. Anyone have any ideas? I've tried a number of things, (Too many to elucidate here) but I've run out of things to try. Help if you can and thanks to everyone for all the postings I have reviewed heretofor.
SixActual

 

First of all, make sure ICF (Internet Connection Firewall) is disabled on your XP box.

Click Start, Control Panel, double–click Network
Connections, select the Internet connection, Network Tasks,Change settings of this connection, Advanced tab, Internet Connection Firewall,uncheck or check the Protect my computer and network by limiting or preventing access to this computer from the Internet check box.

At this point you should be able to see all the
win9x boxes from the xp box.

Now, if you have turned on sharing for your devices that you want to share on your xp box, you should also be able to see the xp box on your win9x boxes, assuming you have set up the same workgroup name on the xp box as the win9x boxes.

 

JB
Thanks for the try. I had already disabled it through Network Connections properties. I can't even ping any of the win98SE from the XP machine. It's in the same workgroup as the Win98s and I can even see my neighbor's machines on the network places. Just none of my own. It really is as though the XP were on a separate network of its own. I guess I'll just have to continue the sneaker route for file transfers and direct parallel for printing. What happened to the much bally hooed "XP is great for home networking "?
Don

 

If you've double checked and made sure ICF is
turned off, temporarily do the same thing with
zone-alarm for your xp box and one of the other
pc's. Actually, take it out of the start
up group, and reboot your two machines. If you
can then see between these two machines, you
know you have a configuration setting to make
in zone-alarm when you re-enable it.

Here's another hint. Try checking your ip
addresses for each of your pc's. They should
all be in the range of something like
192.168.123.xxx. The xxx will be a number
from 0 to 255, different for each machine.

Let's keep plugging here. No time to admit
defeat.

 

DJB,
Until YOUR patience runs out...
Zone alarm removed from XP and one Win98 machine. Still can't see each other. Winipconfig on I500:
Host info:
Name: !500.lvcablemodem.com
DNS Servers: 24.234.0.71
Node type: Boadcast

Ethernet Adapter Info:
PPP Adapter
Adapter address: 44-45-53-54-00-00
IP Address: 0.0.0.0
Subnet Mask: 0.0.0.0
Default Gateway: None
DHCP Server: 255.255.255.255
No other entries

Network Connection details on XP (Dport):
Physical address: 00-20-E0-70-0E-AB
IP Address: 24.234.135.33
Subnet mask: 255.255.255.0
Default Gateway: 24.234.135.1
DHCP Server: 24.234.0.37
Lease obtained/expires: 3 hour Normal
DNS Servers: 24.234.0.71
24.234.0.7
WINS Server: No entry

Since Zone Alarm seemed to have no effect and I get nervous being on a cable modem without it-I intend to re-download and reinstall ASAP.
Any more Ideas?

WinIpcfg on I233 varies only in Host name- DNS Server and the fact that the IP routing enabled and the NetBIOS resolution Uses DNS boxes are checked on this machine.
Don

 

SixActual (good lord - haven't heard that one for a long, long time)

It really sounds like your 9x system and your XP box are on different IP subnets. If so, without a router on your network they will never have the first clue how to find each other.

I couldn't find any sign of the IP address / subnet mask for any of the 9x PCs but unless they are using 24.234.135.xxx (any number from 1 to 254 except the one your XP box is already using) they simply will never see each other with TCP/IP. A caution though - since this is a "live" address series, you will probably have issues by trying to use an IP address that someone else already has.

Two fairly easy ways to get yourself a "fix ".

1. Run NetBeui on all PCs and let it do your internal networking. Works fine and the "bad" features won't apply on a network that small.

2. Get yourself a router/switch with NAT to connect to the cable modem and to the additional PCs and/or hub. That way, your router gets the IP address from your ISP and it takes care of connecting the other machines. Also nice since the router/switch will have a nice firewall built in and NAT itself is quite a bit of protection. And the 100mbs switch will be lots faster than any hub.

 

NetBEUI & Routers

Newt,
Hadn't heard "SixActual" myself in 25 years or so. Last time had sweat in my eyes as well as my ears and I think we were just west of DBP, at a compromised hot LZ, under an Arty barrage, taking SAF as well and I was screaming for an extraction!

I've NetBEUI protocal running on ALL the machines but the XP and 98s still don't "see" each other. Check my last posting about the addresses and DNS servers. I think the Cable Modem is acting as the server because all the machines except the XP have 0.0.0.0 for their IP addresses. Maybe I'll go buy a router although I was just reading that there's a huge security hole in them and Cisco and LinkSys were scrambling to come up with a patch (patches?). Something about the SNMP having holes in it. It was on the ZD Tech page and they were scolding the CERT guys for not giving the vendors more time to patch before they let the cat out of the bag. I can see both sides.
Thanks for the info. Any other ideas welcome any time...
Don

 

Newt's right. No indication of an IP address there for your adapters. In your post you were looking at the ppp adapter. When you initially run WINIPCFG, it comes up in a small window. At the bottom of the window is a "more info" button. Click on it, and then you'll see the "Ethernet Adapter Information ". The first part will show the info for the PPP Adapter. Click on the little down arrow and you'll see the other adapter in your box that is relevant. Select that adapter and then you'll get the info for it. You should come up with an ip address in the range of 192.168.123.xxx if nothing has been tampered with as far as default settings are concerned. Do this with one of your 9x boxes and with your XP box do this:
click Start
click Run
Type in command and hit Enter
Type in ipconfig and hit Enter.

You should have all the IP info come up for that box.

Both boxes should have an IP address in the range of 192.168.123.xxx

Both boxes should have the same subnet mask of 255.255.255.0

Now my only question is, you mentioned you have a hub these boxes are all connected to, and you don't have ICS (Internet Connection Sharing) running. If that is the case, and the win9x boxes are all connecting to the internet, you must have two NICs installed in the PC that is connected to the cable modem. You can call that box your gateway box. One NIC (let's call it NIC-1) connects to the Cable Modem, the other NIC (let's call it NIC-2) connects to your Hub. NIC-1 now forms your connection to the internet. NIC-2 now forms your connection to your "intranet" or your local net.

To make this setup work, you have to have ICS running. Whether it's MicroSofts ICS or a third party's like Sygate or WinProxy, or my favorite, ArtiSofts iShare, they are the software version of a NAT (Network Address Translator).

You say you can see all the 9x boxes. You say you can see the internet from them all. You say you have no ICS running. If that is the case, I am thinking you have the cable modem plugged into one of the ordinary ports on your Hub, just like you have the 9x boxes plugged into their ports. That's not the way to hook up a cable modem to a network. I am amazed it works.

To connect a cable modem to a local area network you have to have a broadband router/switch instead of a hub. With a broadband router/switch setup you can do without the ICS, because the switch has the NAT built right into it and it does all the routing necessary as well. It also provides you with a hardware firewall. The key difference you will see upon inspection of the router, is it has an input for the cable modem labeled WAN (Wide Area Network, as in Internet). You won't find a WAN port on an ordinary hub.

I've hit a number of topics here, and maybe some of them don't apply. I only have your posts to go by, so if some of them are applicable, great. I hope I've given you some gems here to investigate, at any rate.

You mentioned you have a cable modem hooked to a hub that is hooked to another hub with 5 desktop and one occasional laptop networked with all
running Win98SE.

The cable modem must connect to a broadband router/switch plugging directly into a WAN port. I would suggest you dump both hubs and get yourself a 4 port or 8 port broadband router/switch. It's going to cost you, but the advantages will be worth it.

What did I miss Newt?

 

Just to clear up a possibly confusing area in my previous post.

There are two ways to hook up a cable modem to a network.

The first way is to have a gateway computer. It's going to have the two NICs in it. One NIC connects to the internet via the cable modem. The other NIC connects to the hub via a standard hub port. This provides a connection to the local area network. Then you have to add ICS software to provide the Network Address Translation. All the other pc's have only a single NIC.

The second method uses a broadband cable modem/DSL Router/Switch. With one of these, your gateway computer doesn't exist. All of your PC's have only one NIC. All of the pc's connect to a standard port on the router. Only the cable modem or dsl modem connects to the single WAN port on the router.

Big advantages:
no ICS software,
NAT provide by hardware in the router,
No gateway pc having to be left on 24/7,
Built in hardware firewall, (Zone alarm and Virus Scan S/W still required though)
Faster networking due to switch properties compared to a hub.

Hope that clears up any fuzzy areas.

 

The Impossible works?

djbourassa:
Per your instructions I checked the other adapter in WinIpCfg. It turned out to be a Novell 2000 whatever that is. It shows a subnet mask of 255.255.255.0 and an ip address of 24.234.12.33. The XP machine shows an ip address of 24.234.135.33, a subnet mask of 255.255.255.0 and a gateway of 24.234.135.1.
I checked all my connections and there is a single NIC in each machine and they are all connected to a 3Com Office connect Hub8/TPO. One network cable runs from there to a Microhub-8 TP1008C 8 port Ethernet Repeater and another network cable runs from the Microhub to the cable modem. There are five desktop computers connected to the 3Com plus two free jacks for portables which have been on the network in the past.
Maybe the "shouldn't work" does! Somehow!
Until the XP, they all worked in harmony sharing files and running three printers (2 HP DJs and an HP LaserJet 4. A Toshiba and a Compaq portable have shared the network as well with no difficulties.
As I told Newt, I guess I'll go to COMPusa and see if I can pick up a router and plug the whole mess into it.
Thanks again,
Don

 

Hey there's the rub, six !! Your subnet masks are all okay, but your ip addresses are not. The first three numbers have to be identical or they are not on the same network! The ones you quoted me are 24.234.12.33 and 24.234.135.33. Additionally, the first number indicates they are on the open internet (the first number, 24), instead of a 192.168.123.xxx network which is a closed set of numbers for local area networks.

If you checked the rest of your machines and listed all their ip addresses, it might shed some more light on things.

In any case, you really should go out and buy a broadband router/switch, preferably an 8port one so that you don't have to use either of your old hubs. You'll probably find that they are all 10/100mbps nowadays. Your Novell 2000 (or compatible) nic is an older 10 mbps card. So for an extra 20 or 30 bucks per computer, you can get yourself into a 10/100 mbps adapter while your at it.

Follow my instructions in my previous post for hooking up the router, (after installing the newer/faster NICs first), and you should find everything runs just fine. Don't forget to take out ZoneAlarm and any anti-virus s/w before you set things up, and then to re-enable them after.

Good luck, and let me know how it goes.

 

Just another little bit of info...

Once you have everything set up, your pc's should be on the 192.168.123.xxx local network ip's. They will all have the same numbers for the first three (ie - 192.168.123.) They will be uniquely identified by the different last numbers.

Your router will end up with the 24.xxx.xxx.xxx sequence. It will be the "only" device the internet will be able to see when the internet talks to your pc. It will shield your individual pc's from attacks. More than likely, it will work right out of the box, but it will also be configurable by your browser. Your browser will talk to it by it's other number which will also be in the 192.168.123.xxx range. So think of your router as having two ip addresses. One for the outside world, (24.xxx.xxx.xxx), and one for the local network, (192.168.123.xxx). To configure the router, if it needs it, you start up your browser and punch in it's ip address as follows:
http://192.xxx.xxx.xxx. The actual address will be hard coded into the routers hardware, and you will discover what it is from the paper work that comes with it.

And another thing. Once you have all your nics installed, don't bother with netbeui. You will only need tcp/ip for a protocol.

Have fun.

 

Fun?

DJB,
If you knew how close together all the boxes are-you wouldn't think of it as fun. I think you've ID'd the situation with the present setup. I suspect the tedious turning off and on the file sharing I've done each time has protected me up until now-but depending on luck to keep you safe... So-o-o...I'll follow your instructions to the letter and let you know how things go. Again, thank you so much for all your help.
Don

 

djbourassa - excellent summation. One trick though. Ipconfig /all will give a nice info display.

Don - something like 34 years for me. Similar situation though - except that I weren't the six. And happy to not be I might add. The grunts would yell "medic" and I would yell back "I don't do house calls you idiot ".

And the advice to get a router/switch /w NAT and 10/100 NICs is right on. The switch will deal with your network for you pretty much. Just set it (or leave it set) to be your DHCP server and set everybody to take what DHCP offers. The router/NAT combination will pretty much hide your PCs from the hostile world out there.

You can then give the poor old HUB the decent burial it deserves for long and faithful service.

 

Thanks for the good info, helped me get my NetGear'd 'puters running together mobetter.
a flattop on yankee station was more comfy.

 

Your welcome RexB.

That's the beauty of these forums. Being open to all, there's often more than one person that needs the info, so when one person posts a question, it invariably has potential to provide assistance to a raft of others lurking in the weeds. Also, if there is some misinformation taking place, usually some one else is kind enough to provide corrections or redirction/guidance.

 

RexB - a bird farm is the next best thing to being ashore in friendly territory.

I though I was home free cause no body had ever told me the Marines don't have any medical folks of their own and just "borrow" what they need from the Navy. And they don't ask, they tell. When I got orders to Fleet Marine Force training, I though there had been some sort of horrible mistake cause I was in the Navy and sitting fat, dumb, and happy in Southern Spain at the time.

And glad you got some help from the thread.

 

Right you are Newt, whenever I Waaa'd, just had to think about the guys in the mud & blood to cure it. You must be proud of the FMF's actions recently, me too. Rota? Only had a coupla' portcalls there, good wine nasty gendarme.

This bbs is great ;-)

 

Southern Spain - the wine is outstanding and the Guardia Civil are some tough folks.

Whidbey Island - are you still wearing a sailor suit? I gave mine up in 1991 after 30 years or so. Actually, I gave up my Coast Guard suit. One tour in VietNam with the Marines convinced me the Navy was no place for this child.

 

Nope, Retiredaaah! now after a coupla' squadron tours, went to subs out of Norfolk & Pearl, landed a Command Master Chief billet here at Whidbey NAS, SHORE command then carved a homesite out in the woods here (8+ acres) and pulled the plug. Can't get a DSL or fast phone connection, but I'm lovin' the warm-weather Jeremiah Johnson thing.