TB Font Change using Bullet or Indent

Bob ...

One thing we haven't tried is for you to change your Tools > Options > Display > Fonts > Fonts settings to my settings:

Proportional: Sans Serif
Serif: Arial
Sans-serif: Arial
Monospace: Arial​

and your Tools > Options > Composition > HTML Options to:

Font: Variable Width
Size: medium​

I know that my settings don't make a whole lot of sense, but they've worked for me for longer than I can tell you, as seen in the attached screenshot (if you can't see it, I've also posted it here).

If they work for you (based on what's been happening with your setup, I'm guessing they won't), I'd just bite the bullet and keep them ... as I said earlier, I find Arial a lot cleaner than any serif font.

Ramona ...

No sweat. I know that my atypical installation doesn't conform to the "rules ", so I never know whether what I'm reporting is valid for anyone else, or not.

 

JSS3rd,

If you are happy - so am I....

Try setting the display fonts to something other than what you have.

Proportional: Sans Serif
Serif: Arial
Sans-serif: Arial
Monospace: Arial

say something like:
Proportional: serif
Serif: Subway
Sans-serif: Baloonist
Monospace: Cezanne

your choice as long as it is different.
Note the display when you compose it.

send to another account/version that does not thave the same display settings.

Did the fonts show up there ? they don't for me.............also view the page source of the message..

regards:captjlddavis

 

Bob, and Jim,

The default setting for Fonts in "Sent Mail" is:

Tools | Options | Composition | General, HTML Options Tab


This setting changes only what the user sees when messages are received, NOT sent:

Tools | Options | Display | Fonts, Fonts Tab

 

Cap'n ...

I tried your suggestion, sending test messages to my accounts at Yahoo Mail and Google's Gmail, neither of which allows me to control the font settings in received messages. The serif font I used, Times New Roman, showed up in the received messages as Arial. For sans-serif and proportional, I used Arizona and Berlin, and they showed up properly.

I don't understand your point, though. The reason I use Arial to compose messages is because it's a font that everyone has on his/her computer (though I believe it's called Helvetica on the Mac).

Ramona ...

I don't know what you're driving at, either, as the whole discussion has been about the fonts in the Composition and Reply windows, not in sent or received messages.

To both of you ...

My apologies if I've misunderstood anything in your messages. It's l-o-n-g past my bedtime here on the east coast.

 

JSSR3

My point is that options -display-font-font setting have NO effect on what is sent - regardless what what the other person has on his machine.

I tried to replicate your example and sent to Yahoo - and Gmail pop - I accessed yahoo thru browser and the fonts did NOT show up. I accessed Gmail thru Seamonkey mail - no show there either......

I think we have beat this horse enough....if it works for you great.......

regards:captjlddavis

 

Jim,

What captjlddavis said... Clarifying the "Default" setting, and the fonts that you see on your PC.

 

Ramona, Jim & Cap'n:

You folks have been busy while I was away. I guess the good news is that you would have had a lot of idle time on your hands without this discussion!

So, If I've got things straight to this point:

1. There is no Cache or History.dat file in a TBird Profile. (Ramona was just testing us).

2. There is an XUL.mfl file in the TBird profile and it should be periodically deleted to control it's size, after which TBird will rebuild it.

3. The font settings for composing are located in Tools> Options> Composition> General> HTML Options. These settings govern how the message is composed and sent. But regardless of what is set there, the message will be displayed at receipt according to the display settings (or defaults) of the receiving email client.

4. The font settings for display are located in Tools> Options> Display> Fonts> Fonts. These settings govern display only in the composer's TBird and have no impact on composition, what is sent, or how it is displayed upon receipt.​

So let's focus on composition for the moment.

1. When I select a font and size in HTML Options, click OK, and return immediately to HTML Options, the selection is displayed as Variable Width and Medium.

2. The text displayed in composing a message after those settings, however, is in the font and size originally selected (TNR and Large, for example), and those settings are also shown in the formatting bar and in Font and Size under Format.​

If this is the intended behavior, the only logic I can see is to apply and display the settings for the composer, while the message is sent carrying only the general settings (variable width and medium) for interpretation and display by the receiver's mail client. I suppose I could see some value in that logic if the composition font isn't available to the receiver's email client. But if the composition settings are available on receipt, why wouldn't they be applied? If they aren't applied, what's the purpose of designating composition font and size to begin with?

Then there's the issue that started all of this: change in font and size when using bullet or indent.

1. With my HTML Options set to TNR and large, bullet and indent go to variable width and medium.

2. Selecting HTML Options of Arial and Medium, the bullet and indent font used is variable width and medium. Setting the Options to Arial and Large, the bullet and indent font used is variable width and medium.

3. In both 1 and 2, above, the bullet and indent variable width font is Arial, although that's not stated in any setting.​

So, it appears that the default setting for bullet and indent is Arial Medium, and the default is used regardless of what HTML Options are selected. Again, I have a hard time believing this is the intended behavior. Why would the font and size be rigid if you're giving the composer the option of selecting the attributes he/she wants to be applied to the message? I don't believe anyone would consciously choose to compose a message in different font and size for bullet and indent, versus what they chose for the remainder of the message body.

Net-net, the HTML Options selection and reversion to variable width medium is strange, but does apply the selected font and size to the general message text. So it works. The bullet and indent behavior, however, makes no sense to me and I tend to believe it's a bug.

Am I missing anything here?

 

BirdieBob,

This is just MHO, others may see it differently:
So, If I've got things straight to this point:

1. There is no Cache or History.dat file in a TBird Profile. (Ramona was just testing us).

TRUE

2. There is an XUL.mfl file in the TBird profile and it should be periodically deleted to control it's size, after which TBird will rebuild it.

TRUE

3. The font settings for composing are located in Tools> Options> Composition> General> HTML Options. These settings govern how the message is composed and sent. But regardless of what is set there, the message will be displayed at receipt according to the display settings (or defaults) of the receiving email client.

TRUE

4. The font settings for display are located in Tools> Options> Display> Fonts> Fonts. These settings govern display only in the composer's TBird and have no impact on composition, what is sent, or how it is displayed upon receipt.

TRUE

So let's focus on composition for the moment.

1. When I select a font and size in HTML Options, click OK, and return immediately to HTML Options, the selection is displayed as Variable Width and Medium.

TRUE

2. The text displayed in composing a message after those settings, however, is in the font and size originally selected (TNR and Large, for example), and those settings are also shown in the formatting bar and in Font and Size under Format.

TRUE

If this is the intended behavior, the only logic I can see is to apply and display the settings for the composer, while the message is sent carrying only the general settings (variable width and medium) for interpretation and display by the receiver's mail client. I suppose I could see some value in that logic if the composition font isn't available to the receiver's email client. But if the composition settings are available on receipt, why wouldn't they be applied? If they aren't applied, what's the purpose of designating composition font and size to begin with?

CAVEAT:

If you select Font and Size in the message composition bar, that font and size are displayed and sent.
based on the "PreferMailFormat" for the recipient as listed in your addressbok and send options.

Then there's the issue that started all of this: change in font and size when using bullet or indent.

1. With my HTML Options set to TNR and large, bullet and indent go to variable width and medium.

Somewhat TRUE.......

Set bullet/indent via "message composition bar" AFTER you select bullet/indent OR select text and format then select bullet/indent

2. Selecting HTML Options of Arial and Medium, the bullet and indent font used is variable width and medium. Setting the Options to Arial and Large, the bullet and indent font used is variable width and medium.

See above for sequence of font and size entry.

3. In both 1 and 2, above, the bullet and indent variable width font is Arial, although that's not stated in any setting.

?????

Somewhat - also see above

So, it appears that the default setting for bullet and indent is Arial Medium, and the default is used regardless of what HTML Options are selected. Again, I have a hard time believing this is the intended behavior. Why would the font and size be rigid if you're giving the composer the option of selecting the attributes he/she wants to be applied to the message? I don't believe anyone would consciously choose to compose a message in different font and size for bullet and indent, versus what they chose for the remainder of the message body.

Yes it is somewhat confusing to me also, but the above is just MHO and I could be wrong.



Net-net, the HTML Options selection and reversion to variable width medium is strange, but does apply the selected font and size to the general message text. So it works. The bullet and indent behavior, however, makes no sense to me and I tend to believe it's a bug.

Am I missing anything here?

Not really that I can see, it's just convulated and perhaps a "bug "

regards:captjlddavis

 

Captjlddavis:

Thanks for the reply, confirmations and suggestions. I think we're generally in sync on most of this.

If I understand this correctly, the selected font and size will be sent and received if the addressbook defines the address' send option to HTML, right?

I've been using the approach of re-defining font and size via the message composition bar after going to bullet or indent. It works, but it or the other option is just a pain that shouldn't exist, especially if you've got a longer or more complex message that you're trying to format for better clarity or understanding. I can't see a reason why the setting shouldn't apply to the entire message by default, and let you decide if and where you want to change that via the message composition bar.

I agree it's convoluted at best. If it's a bug, it doesn't appear to be a major effort to correct. Is something like this worth formally reporting and if so where?

Again, thanks for the feedback.

 

BirdieBob,

Yep that is how I see it.....

again somewhat....

If you have some addressbook entries has "plain text" entered, and you couple these with HTML recipients - then it will be guided by whatever you have set in Tools->options->Composition->Send options...again somewhat convoluted....

There may be a reason, I don't know - but that is how it seems to work.

As to bug or not - again I don't know.

Hopefully I was of some help

regards:captjlddavis

 

I had a message just about ready to post this morning, when the BBS went down for several minutes (Arie probably was doing some maintenance) and I lost the whole thing. I'll re-create as best I can.

I think I may have mixed up email with web pages. As I understand it, if a web page uses a particular font, a user must have that font installed on his/her computer in order to see it on the site. Otherwise, the browser will substitute an "equivalent" font from those installed on the computer.

That's only partly true (at least on my two computers). The selections in Tools > Options > Display > Fonts > Fonts do govern what fonts I see as I:

compose a message

read a sent message (I'm not talking about what font information may actually have been sent)

read a received message, particularly if the box for Allow messages to use other fonts is not checked.​

I'd appreciate it if someone else could verify this. Go into the above settings, select either serif or sans-serif (doesn't seem to matter which), then select some odd-ball font, list it in all three windows, uncheck Allow messages to use other fonts and OK your way out.

Now, it doesn't matter whether you open a Compose or Reply window, or whether you read a sent message or a received one ... you should see all text in the message body in the font you've just selected.

Bob ...

If you follow this procedure, you may well be able to use TNR without it changing size when you indent or use leading bullets or numbers if you select "MEDIUM " in Composition > HTML Options. Select "Variable Width" at the same time, and you won't be frustrated by seeing the change from "Fixed" to "Variable" in the window when you use one of those three formatting options. I just tried it on one of my computers and the font and its size remained the same at all times.

Cap'n ...

It works for me, and I'm happy ... I hope you are, too.

 

Captjlddavis:

Your feedback was helpful and is appreciated. Thanks.

Jim:

I picked New Century Schoolbook as the font since I've never seen it before to my knowledge. Selected it in all 3 windows of the Tool> Options> Fonts> Fonts dialog. When I then composed or replied to a message, that font did not come through. Rather the font was what I had selected in HTML Options -- Times New Roman.

When I changed HTML Options to New Century Schoolbook, composition and replies showed that font in the message composition bar and under Format> Font. So my experience was different than yours. For me at least, the HTML options are the sole driver of message font in composition or replies. Also, bullet or indent with New Century Schoolbook in effect still produced a smaller, variable width font (arial) for that text.

The bullet & indent issue can be avoided if HTML options are set to Arial and Medium. I just don't prefer that font or size. Logically, the options were offered to be used and as I said to captjlddavis below, the selections should be employed throughout a message unless you choose to change a segment via the message formatting bar.

Do you think this is a bug that should be formally reported and if so, where?

 

Bob,

Thunderbird Bugs. I would discuss it here, before reporting.

 

Bob ...

Instead of selecting a font in Composition > HTML Options..., try selecting "Variable Width ", and "Medium ". Change the settings in Tools > Options > Display > Fonts > Fonts to TNR.

Then, compose a test message in a Composition window, and see if the font sizes change. I'm guessing that they won't.

Also, check Sent messages and messages in your Inbox. If you've UNchecked the box for Allow messages to use other fonts in Tools > Options > Display > Fonts > Fonts, all messages, sent or received, should be displayed in TNR.

 

Jim:

Correct -- the font sizes do not change. But I believe that's because bullet and indent default (wrongly in my opinion) to Medium size. Entering initial text, the formatting bar and Format> Font show TNR. Using bullet and indent, the formatting bar and Format> Font change to Variable Width.

Also correct -- all messages appear to be displayed in TNR. That's as it should be -- display governed by Display settings.

I suspect we've probably ridden this horse as far as it can run. We're down to how TB handles bullet and indent functions. It's certainly not a show-stopper and it can be overcome by entering text before using the functions, or by adjusting the font & size via the formatting bar after entering the text.

But TB in general reflects a good intuitive design and feel, and the handling of these functions runs counter to those attributes. Given the option to select the font and size you want to apply (Tools> Options> Composition> HTML Options), one should expect those selections to be applied. Changes to that selection should be at the direction of the user, not TB -- if, when and where the user decides to do so.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it! I'll follow Ramona's suggestion and discuss this in Thunderbird Bugs and see where it goes from there.

Thanks for your time and efforts -- they are appreciated!

 

Bob ...

My pleasure.

I'm sure we'll never get a consensus about what features to add, or irritants to correct or eliminate in Thunderbird, but I agree with you that options which appear to be selectable by the user should remain selected until changed by the user. I never ran across your particular issue only because I've always used the "medium" setting in HTML Options.

That said, three things, in particular, bug me about Tbird. Two of them supposedly are email "conventions ", and the third is a reported bug that's been around for some time, and needs to be squashed.

The conventions are:

1. the two-dash line (the "delineator ", I believe it's called) that appears above a signature. Most of my email correspondence is personal, but I frequently add a signature (actually, an image of "Jim ", or "Dad ", depending on to whom I'm writing) and, as I don't like the line, must remove it manually.

2. the fact that, when an image is added in the body of a message, "Alternate text" is the default setting on the Image Properties > Location tab, and "Don't use alternate text" must be selected. I know it sounds petty, but I email a lot of pictures, and I change that setting every time I add an image to a message.)​

I firmly believe that not having a line appear with a signature and "Don't use alternate text" should be selectable as default settings, but I've fought the fight in the Tbird forums, and it's not going to happen.

The bug has to do with what happens in a Composition window IF you have the "Auto Save" box checked on the Tools > Options > Composition > General tab (the time interval doesn't seem to matter). After the first save to the Drafts folder (either auto or manual), if you include an image in the body of the message, rather than attach it, only the rectangular outline of the image will appear. The image actually gets sent, and you can see it in the sent message, but not in the message before you send it.

I've figured out a way around it, though, just as you figured out a way to handle your indented and bulleted text. After you've finished composing your message, save it one last time (either way), close the Composition window, and open the saved message in the Drafts folder. The image(s) will be visible so you can check it/them, and you can send the message.

 

Jim:

I don't use images in the signature, so the "delineator" isn't an issue for me. The "alternate text" default with images is something I run into often and I agree it's irritating. I encountered the "bug" a while back and dropped Auto Save because of it -- and coincidentally, use the same workaround as you do when I want to verify the contents before sending.

All of the "irritants" will never be resolved, but there's a better chance of more being addressed by the nature of the Mozilla organization than would be the case inder a more traditional application software cycle or organization. So, it's worth lobbing these things into the air in the hope that they'll stick with someone who will make it happen. I guess that's my Glass-Half-Full take on it!