Faulty Fan? / Overheating?

Hi guys,

System Spec:
Windows XP Pro
GeForce4 Ti4200 Graphics Card (with the latest drivers)
1GB RAM
Intel Pentium4 3Ghz

Background
I have had a number of overheating issues with my computer. Occasionally a horrible grinding noise would come from the cpu (going back about six months), but this isn't an issue anymore. However, one of the fans on the motherboard appears to not be working. To my knowledge this isn't the CPU fan over the heatsink itself (which I recently cleared - and accidentally dismounted the heatsink itself; is that an issue?). It's a small blue fan with 'Abit' written on it, I assume this is what they call the Northbridge fan.
To cut to the chase, when playing a computer game that makes demands on my old GeForce4 Ti 4200 graphics card, odd things occasionally happen with the graphics rendering. Just two weeks ago my computer beeped rudely at me, I assume it had actually overheated. <<Shuts down madly>>

1) Any idea how I could get the small Abit fan to work? It's connected directly to the motherboard.

2) Could the fact that this small fan is not working, be the source of my apparent overheating issues?

3) Is it an issue that I removed the heatsink when I cleaned the fan? I replaced it easy enough, no damage done.

4) What temperature does a GPU and CPU run at when it's in use by a moderately average program like windows, as opposed to a game that puts high demands on the card? My monitoring program tells me that the CPU chip always sits around 50 degrees celsius with no programs apart form XP loaded. (It's summer here, I assume this has a small contribution to my overheating issues.)

Many thanks for any help or advice you are able to provide.

EDIT: I should add that a blue LED has decided to make an appearance with it's insistent glow, sitting next to my HDD activity LED.

 

Overheating will cause the computer to shut down...

When you put the fan back on the CPU did you use 'thermal paste'? This is necessary to insure proper cooling. 50C is a little warm for your CPU temperature but is within limits. I am assuming that the CPU has the stock fan on it, I would buy a third party CPU fan and see if I couldn't lower the CPU temp (the cooler the better). Make sure all your case fans are free of dust. If the fan on the chipset is damaged, it should be replaceable. Go to the ABIT website and look for information there. HTH

B

 

I second the need to evaluate your cpu's heatsink/fan. It could be a low performer if it's the one that came with your cpu. Usually, stock heatsinks suffice even when gaming but if it's paired with poor airflow in your case it could cause trouble. Do you have at least a front intake and a rear exhaust fan in your case?

Shooting from the hip, I'd say that for the most part, having a functional fan on your Northbridge is not needed for normal operation unless you are overclocking your FSB - which I assume you are not.

If you are idling at 50C, chances are your temps during gaming are a bit higher. When I was using the early Athlons (Palominos?), I used to get instability with cpu temps over 51C. Also, note that your 50C is probably the external cpu temp, not the internal chip diode temp. If so, you can add about 10C to your 50C to come up with what's really going on in your cpu. So, in essence, I'd say yeah, you're running too hot.

I don't know what to say about your graphical artifacting. There's no real intuitive leap between a overly hot cpu and an overly hot GPU unless your case ventilation is real bad.

There also is the possibility that alot of this could be related to a power supply that is not meeting your needs.

Gary

 

You need to remove the heatsink and either clean he old thermal paste off or remove the thermal pad and clean off any residual mess left by it. Use Isoproyl alcohol to clean the heatsink and the area of the CPU where it contacts it. Do not touch the surfaces of the heatsink or CPU after cleaning. Apply a small dab of thermal paste (about the size of a grain of rice) on the center of the CPU that contacts the heatsink and reseat the heatsink moving it gently to smear the paste. Remove the chipset fan and buy a replacement for it. The chipset heatsinks are so shallow that when they get a little dust buildup it impedes the fan and wears it down. of course most factory chipset fans have sleeve bearings and are very cheaply made. I run my Epox mobo with it remove but I have a 120mm fan in my side cover aimed at it.

 

Thanks a lot for your feedback.
I monitored the temperatures last night (using Motherboard Monitor 5) and found that after playing this intensive game for 20 minutes the CPU temperature rises to around 61 - 63C, though it drops quite rapidly after exiting the game (back down to around 47 - 50C).

I do have an intake and exhaust fan. I have two intake fans at the front of the case (down the bottom), and two exhaust fans at the rear (towards the top, one of them belonging to the PSU). I also have an exhaust fan at the top of the case. I tried unplugging one of the rear exhaust fans and monitored the temp difference, but virtually no change. The air flow through the case seems to be quite good, and I recently cleared all dust out of the fans.

In relation to my non-functional chipset fan (northbridge fan... is that the same thing?) I can't even figure out how to remove the darn thing. It's kind of hooked on with four clips, but it's in there fairly tight - I'm worried I might snap something if I push down on it too hard.

I will definitely make a visit to my local computer store ASAP, to buy a new heatsink and fan, along with the suggested glue. I'll post back my results.

 

Replacing the thermal compound is very important. If the old compound was "original" (it was the first compund), it would be a "thermal pad ". Thermal pads do not handle being "opened" very well at all, it changes their composition (at least on the older types). Removing and replacing the heatsink may have trapped air pockets in the thermal compound, air is a insulator, so you may have hot-spots on the CPU.

The ArcticSilver website probably has the best information about having a good layer of thermal compound www.arcticsilver.com (see the instructions [ArcticSilver5] which will relate to any other brand of compound you may choose).

Once you have mastered the technique of applying the compound, you will have overcome the most important part of motherboard/CPU reinstallation, you can build/rebuild a system with confidence in that most important area. (If you blow it, take the heatsink off, clean it and start again.) The trick is to have the thinnest layer possible, with no air bubbles.

Matt

 

Thanks for your feedback Matt. I just finished installing my new CPU & heatsink, it was $70 so I'm hoping I got what I paid for (this is the same type I bought: www.etexpo.com/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductId=10731)
I also bought a thin, square sticky pad which is supposed to act as an adhesive and thermal between the cpu and the heatsink. I stuck it onto the cpu as the IT store guy suggested, carefully placed my new heatsink and fan on top, started up my computer and was assaulted by my computers alarm - assuming this means that the CPU was heating rapidly.

Anyone ever heard of these thin sticky sheets that you adhere to the CPU? Do they really work properly, or should I go out and by some Artic Silver or something similar? I'm a bit concerned about my computer's alarm going off after a ten second bootup...not really sure what to do from this point onwards.

BTW Matt We're both in Sydney, I'll just let you come over and fix it for me, lol.

S

 

Yes, you need to go buy Arctic Silver 5 and make sure you've got a clean cpu core and a clean bottom to your cooler. Do as Mattman stated with the AS5 and then attach the cooler being careful not to put a screwdriver through your mainboard. Also be meticulous with orientation and alignment - cpu heatsinks only go on one way and you don't want to crack your core or fry your cpu (bad contact).

As soon as I heard you say thermal squares I started to get sympathy pains for your cpu. Whatever they are - avoid them. Maybe they're Berquist tape. That kind of stuff can be used for Northbridge or memory cooling but it's not going to hack it for cpu cooling.

Cpu cooling doesn't have to be rocket science but it needs to be taken seriously. Retail coolers come with phase-change materials (pink squares) that are okay for the initial install. But once the cooler is removed, it all has to be scraped off and it's time to whip out the Arctic Silver.

Do you mean you spent 70 Aussie dollars? I almost choked on that number till I realized you were from Sydney.

Gary

 

Thanks for your response Chiles, you confirmed my suspicion that this adhesive square is possibly the cause of my problem. I'll head out today and buy some Arctic Silver Thermal Compound, and will post back with my results.
Definitely $70 australian dollars for the fan, sorry to give you that mild heart attack! This fan appears quite heavy duty, and I'm hoping to investigate possible 'overclocking' (please don't cringe) once I've solved my initial heating problem.
Hopefully my CPU will achieve sub-arctic temperatures in no time!

S

 

I don't know that brand of heatsink and the link you posted has few technical details. In the early days of Athlon XP's and P4's a heatsink was a heatsink. Then, when both started bringing out new models you could notice that there were types of heatsinks for 1.3 micron Athlons vs 1.8 micron Athlons and others for the different models of Pentiums. Now they go even further and state the type within models, like Athlon 2.8Ghz - 3.4Ghz or Pentium 915 3.2Ghz - 4.0Ghz (Edit: appologies to Pentium enthusiasts if I got that wrong, I am still trying to get my head around their new modelling system). The heatsink is designed for your model?

AMD and Intel have "approved" heatsink model lists. If you find trouble getting reasonable temps check that heatsink list and query the reseller that sold it to you.

I would only show you and tell you what is on the arcticsilver website, but it would be a good excuse for a beer

The northbridge fan?!?! I think you need to change it. Although I fixed a GPU fan recently by flooding the bearings with Contact Cleaner. Push the fan propellors around with the tip of a pencil, if there is resistance Contact Cleaner may help. If it is difficult to work on you may be best off removing the motherboard from the case. If it still seems difficult to remove, ring or ask a local computer store/repairer how much they would charge to replace it, with the motherboard out it should be a 5 minute job.

Matt

 

Good point, Mattman. Different coolers are made to only fit on certain platforms/processors.

Speaking of a heatsink being a heatsink, here's a picture of my heatsink. And here's another for size comparison. I think the one on the right is made for an 80mm fan and the one on the left (mine) goes well with a 92mm fan. Note the heatpipes. I don't put a fan on top of the heatsink. Instead, I have a 120mm fan that mounts into a conduit that pulls air in directly from the side of the case and fires it right onto the heatsink.
It works very well.

Is this a case of "size matters "?

Gary

 

The heatsink is supposed to be compatible with many types of motherboards and cpu, including mine which is an an Intel P4 3Ghz, though I will check that list as mentioned.

Last night I removed the heatsink, along with the cpu - which came out when I removed the heatsink as the adhesive square I used the other night was quite strong. I was a little worried by this, but removed the adhesive from the cpu and replaced it gently onto the motherboard.
I used the thermal compound I bought yesterday, replaced the heatsink/fan, and tried booting up the computer. It lasts about ten seconds before the cpu alarm goes off. I went into bios and checked the settings, the cpu alarm is set to go off at 72C, I also enabled the auto-shutdown feature if the cpu reached 75C. So now, I boot up the computer, and after ten seconds it shuts down again.
I went through the process of removing the heatsink, cleaning, re-applying, re-attaching heatsink, etc. a couple times, but the comp still shuts down after about ten seconds.

The fan appears to work fine. The heatsink seems to be sitting snugly on top of the thermal compound and cpu, I just can't figure it out.

Unless anyone has any further ideas as to what I could do to fix this or what could be going wrong, I think it might be time I took my cpu to an expert. Maybe I've damaged something...?

 

It sounds like you are doing everything correctly. If you are cleaning all the old compound off and applying a very thin, even layer, that should work.

Check through the motherboard manual. There will be a section in the BIOS settings that gives temperature readouts. Check these to confirm that high temps are the problem (over 45-50*C would be high when in the BIOS settings).

You could use the BIOS setting "Setup Defaults" (or similar wording) to run the system at minimal levels and maybe stabilize it to some extent

You could install the old heatsink and fan. If this worked, you know that your application techinque is OK. It would then mean that the new heatsink is not the correct one for your CPU.
With a good application of ArcticSilver5 the original heatsink should work better than it did in the first place.

The last time I checked, Intel do not specify a "maximum" temperature that their CPUs can withstand (AMD specify limits, but the system would not be working at those limits).

Heatsinks that are Intel or AMD approved usually come with that emblazoned on the packaging. In the past I think you could "get by" using a heatsink that was generic, now, there seems to be very specific requirements and you will find details at the CPU manufacturer's websites about using others "at your own risk ".

If you want to ask about suitability of that heatsink try forums.overclockers.com.au
Actually...they will probably be able to tell you about replacing the northbridge fan.

Luck
Matt

 

Thanks once again Matt.
I have done a little research about thermal compound application, and have discovered that perhaps I had put too much compound on the cpu. Could this act as an insulator if too much compound is used?
I'm not using artic silver, but a generic brand which the store person recommended to me (he told me he used it on his own cpu).
I'm going to give it another shot tonight, this time making sure that I don't spread around the compound myself, or that I put more than a single dollop onto the cpu.

Hopefully I haven't already fried the cpu, that would be most... upsetting (do you think this is likely?).
If it still overheats, I'll try the same procedure with my old heatsink and fan as you suggested Matt, and assuming no success - then I will know that I've ******* something up seriously.

 

After having read some promising experiments carried out on Intel and AMD processors (check here for interest, I really recommend reading this for those of you with overheating concerns: http://www.tomshardware.com/2001/09/17/hot_spot) which actually involved the removal of the heatsink from the cpu during operation, I'm encouraged that Intel have shown incredible durability.
Hopefully my cpu is fine. Time to get home and crank it up again.
Renewed hope

 

In a word, yes. The thermal compound is the best thing that they have come up with to transfer the heat across the gap between the CPU surface and heatsink surface. You are trying to remove air (which is an insulator) with a heat conductive material, BUT, it will not conduct heat as if it were directly through metal, it is only as close as they can make it (thus the silver in ArcticSilver). Even though there is a layer of thermal compound, the futher apart the surfaces, the less heat will be transferred. You want the thinnest gap possible between the surfaces without any air trapped.

I think you have a lot of hope left, especially with a Pentium. (Pls check that tomshardware link, it will not load for me, you may have to link to it's mother site...and I am interested in what it says! ). I have not cooked any CPUs, but I would think that even if it starts up for a small while it is a good sign.

Matt

 

I removed my new heatsink, and reattached my old heatsink with some fresh thermal compound. I'm not sure if this is good news or not, but at least my computer boots up without automatically shutting down now - I only assume this means that the new fan is incompatible (regardless of the fact that it is supposed to be compatible) with my cpu.
My computer boots into the first system screen, and says:

CPU is unworkable or has been changed. Please recheck CPU soft menu
Press F1 to continue, or DEL to enter setup.

Well it's a little depressing really, as the computer doesn't respond to my eager button pushing at this point. So that's where it's at, <sigh>. Can't even access my BIOS now
I've done some reserach into this message, and have to tell you that I'm a little worried that I have either damaged my cpu or BIOS chip.

In relation to that link Matt, try this http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=tomshardware+cpu+heat&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
And click on the first google entry.

 

Snape:
I read with interest re: your current dilemma. You've gotten some good advice but don't even think about ever trying to run without a heatsink and fan installed - not even for a few seconds or fraction thereof.

Now to your problem - get some artic silver #3 or #5 (#5 is preferrable) and don't try to shortcut with substitutes - there is nothing better that I am aware of and Gary and Matt recommended it for a reason. Use it sparingly - very thin layer spread uniformly and carefully after cleaning both your CPU and heatsink with alcohol. Do not just put a drop on the CPU and hope it spreads out - follow Matt's link to the artic silver site and view the proper application procedure. You can also put some on the heatsink and then buff it all off (heatsink only) with a non-lint producing paper towel thereby filling in imperfections in the heatsink surface. Then seat your heatsink carefully and attach the fan to the correct MoBo header.

As to your chipset fan - replace it. Here's a good place to shop for a replacement. http://www.svcompucycle.com/chipsetcoolers1.html

Now, for your BIOS problem. Disconnect the ATX power header connecting to your motherboard. Jumper your CMOS pins to #2 & #3 (its on #1 & #2 right now) Wait 10 - 15 seconds and rejumper it back to #1 & #2. Reconnect your ATX power header. Fire up your system and tap on the delete key to get into your system BIOS on that board. Refer back to the Abit manual and reset your BIOS and then F10 your way out.

Good Luck & Stay Cool.

 

Thanks for your advice Rockster - I followed your directions with the jumper settings (unplugging the ATX power header etc) and rebooted. It now says:

CMOS Checksum error. Defaults loaded.

I still can't access my BIOS by pressing delete, and am unable to continue by pressing F1. I will continue to do some research through Google, but if you have any further advice, don't even hesitate!

EDIT
Also, my computer says this on startup:
Main Processor: Intel Pentium(R) 4 1.50GHz
CPU Brand Name: Intel Pentium(R) 4 CPU 3.00Ghz

Is it peculiar that it says the main processor is 1.50GHz, and yet it's 3.00GHz? If not, I guess you can just disregard this question.

 

Restart and immediately (before anything loads up) start dancing on that delete key. Do you have a motherboard manual? I think you'll find that soft menu on one of the last BIOS tabs, but it will be there somewhere - you need to reset your processor and although I'm not an Intel guy (unless I have to be), there should be an auto detect setting in the BIOS for most of your CPU, bus speed and memory settings. Maybe someone who knows that board specifically will jump in to run you through what is going to be available in the last section of your motherboard manual.