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How do you deal with SPAM??

Discussion in 'General Internet' started by silverwork, 2004/08/12.

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  1. 2004/08/15
    yourbuddy

    yourbuddy Inactive

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    As asked previously ...

    AccuSpam, has any technical (unpaid by you) evaluator (like ZDNet, etc.)
    made any evaluation of your product? It seems (as said previously) that a
    "100% solution to spam" (as advertised by AccuSpam) would be headline
    news - but I have not heard a thing (except for your rants and threats).

    Your "cartooney threats" of legal action just make you sound very silly.

    Tony (at speedguide.net Forum) says: "our" program is ready. That sure
    sounds "possessive" to me. If you pay him to do things for you (as you say)
    then he sure sounds like he has an interest. All your advertising (which you
    say you've edited) and all your silly insults don't give your product value.

    You've insulted/argued with highly technical people all over the Internet.
     
    Last edited: 2004/08/15
    yourbuddy,
    #41
  2. 2004/08/15
    TonyT

    TonyT SuperGeek Staff

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    Just to clear up some things here as I do not wish to see this thread end up a battle of wits or a fight over nuances:

    1. I have been a member of WindowsBBS since 1999 with well over 5000 posts BEFORE the server was cracked and mutilated by some criminal hacker and the entire BBS database was lost. I never spammed the boards nor did I ever shamelessly promote software products here.

    2. I am a Microsoft MVP Shell User.

    3. I am NOT a founding member of SpeedGuide.net, I was a founding member of SpeedCorp.net, a forum, tweaks and computer help site that we decided to no longer keep up as myself & my co-founders had better things to do.

    4. I do contract work for 3Dize.com, the makers of Cool Page Webpage Maker, a successfully selling wysiwyg editor for many many years. I designed and built the official user help site for the Cool Page program and I also have been doing customer support email for several years. (I get 2000+ spams/day in that support account and use accuspam as a spam solution.

    5. I have NO financial interests in Cool Page or Accuspam, I sometimes use the Cool Page program and I use Accuspam for my business email accounts.

    6. I am a longtime forum member at SpeedGuide.net. I believe I am very much respected there for my opinions and for the help I give other members and viewers.

    7. I have but 3 purposes only for my memberships at SpeedGuide.net and WindowsBBS and they are (not necessarily in this order):
    1. To Help Others.
    2. To Learn More.
    3. To Attain Pleasure.

    8. The post at SpeedGuide.net is titled 'Our AntiSpam Is Ready" because:
    the regular members there know that I have worked with the developer of it. I had posted about accuspam a long time ago when it was first being developed. I sought opinions for domain names, website graphics, peoples' ides and thoughts about spam and email viruses, etc. The anti-spam service was later paused so the developer could do more R&D and I was asked by SpeedGuide members to notify them when the service was released, which I did.

    9. IMHO, there is NO such thing as total privacy, and in my 48 yrs on earth I have observed & concluded that the ones who "scream the loudest" about violations of privacy are the ones with the most to hide, e.g. they themselves are extremely guilty of violating others' rights and freedoms. And while NONE of us are completely "free of sin ", MOST of us are respectful of others' rights and most of us are basically good at heart. It is the few "screamers" who make it seem that we are all bad at heart. When in fact, it a a very small percentage of people on earth that are motivated entirely by evil intentions.

    10. I am NOT implying that yourbuddy is evil or that he has violated others. I am simply stating that there is not much to be said for privacy in general, it is NOT that important a subject.

    11. Some things ARE personally private, and the right to maintain personal privacy for these things IS important. It IS a basic human right. It is strongly evident that in societies where this right has been neglected, these societies have failed and/or are decaying. (communisim, socialism, dictatorships etc)

    12. IMHO, an email address is NOT a personally private thing. It may be personal, it may be a business address, it may be many gthings, but it is certainly not private.

    13. The concept of "private email addresses" came into being as a result of the problem of spam. Email users were seeking a way to thwart spammers. But this concept has been proven to fail because the amount of effort required to maintain a private address becomes overwhelming and a waste of energy and resources for individuals & businesses who desire email communications.

    14. This thread began as "How do you deal with SPAM?? ". I responded in what I thought was appropriate to the topic. I posted what works for me. Others have posted what works for them. I do NOT care if anyone who reads this tries accuspam or not. I honestly could care less!
     
    TonyT,
    #42


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  4. 2004/08/15
    yourbuddy

    yourbuddy Inactive

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    Tony ...

    Let's discuss the "private email address" concept.

    If you use AccuSpam (and don't put the email address of your boss or
    an important client in the approved senders list) and they get the type
    of response generated by AccuSpam (which I consider to be "spam "),
    what response do you think you would get from your boss or client if
    you told them that their email address needed to be in a third party
    commercial database in order for them to communicate with you in
    a normal manner (ie: no "spam" message first from AccuSpam).

    Do you think they would say: "sure, put my address in a commercial
    database ", or do you think they would wonder what you were up to?
    Also, Outlook 2003 has these "features" built-in, so that you don't
    need to use AccuSpam to send AccuSpam advertising to them.
     
    yourbuddy,
    #43
  5. 2004/08/15
    yourbuddy

    yourbuddy Inactive

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    AccuSpam ...

    Please note that Tony T. is a "Geek Member" of WindowsBBS :)
    Do you think that WindowsBBS is "insulting/attacking" him? :D
     
    yourbuddy,
    #44
  6. 2004/08/15
    TonyT

    TonyT SuperGeek Staff

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    Still a moot popint re "private email address ".

    In your example, the boss' email address is ALREADY in a database, either your address book or a business network database (Exchange, SQL, etc) No business email address is private, nor should it be expected to be private, it's a business address.

    All personal email addresses are in the ISP's database too, after all, they are the ones that assign the addresses. The isp IS a 3rd party commercial database.

    Outlook 2003 does not have these antispam features built in. No email client or email server has these features built in. Clients have rulesets that can be configured and some clients & servers have auto-response features. The Accuspam Auto Response has a few lines of text that promote the service. This is natural, esp for a FREE service. You may call it spam, but by definition, spam = UBE (Unsolicited Bulk Email), and after the user chooses to add the person to the approved list there are no more auto responses sent, e.g. the sender sees only one messages from accuspam.

    I think if I told a boss or a client that their email address will be stored in a SECURE commercial database that is a part of an antispam solution, that they would not mind at all, esp if the antispam database was more secure than their isp's database and the security certificate was valid and viewable.

    I think my clients would prefer that it be stored there rather than only stored in the Outlook/OE address books, which are continually exploited by virus and worm coders. (I gave up Outlook long ago because of the continual security issues and I encourage others to also switch to better mail clients)

    These stored addresses are not accessable to anyone except the owner of the account. Anyone with a Hotmail account has addresses stored on MSN servers and anyone with Yahoo account has addresses stored on Yahoo servers etc etc. And these 2 companies (MSN and Yahoo) are known supporters of spam! To get a free account at either you must even choose the categories of spam messages you will receive!

    Somewhere along the line, in order to communicate, we must place trust in someone or something. That's all it boils down to, trust in antispam software that you install on your computer, trust in the isp that stores your personal info, trust in an online service, trust in the company that you submit your credit card info to when making an online purchase, your boss' or clients' trust in you, trust in your own judgement.

    People sometimes distrust. Why? Because in the past they have been betrayed or they have betrayed others. Somewhere in the past, in the effort to help or be helped, that help became a betrayal, and the person became a little less trusting or trustworthy. And personal judgement suffers. "Who can I trust now? ", says the betrayed or betrayer. And that person's ability to observe the present has diminished. He is "stuck in past betrayals" and does not readily observe the present. He trusts his own judgement less. It's a shame that Life is like this, but that's how it is. But people are very resilient and will place trust in something again, and as they succeed at it, they overcome the distrust that holds them back in life.
     
    TonyT,
    #45
  7. 2004/08/15
    yourbuddy

    yourbuddy Inactive

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    Very nice statements in the realm of remedial/reverse psychology.
    The "betrayed" and the "betrayor ", the "trusted" and "trustworthy ".

    I do not trust any third party commercial database to be secure and
    "trustworthy ". They'll sell to the highest bidder when the time comes.

    Yes, Outlook 2003 has these same features (just have a look), so it's
    not necessary to rely on any "commercial venture" to "control spam ".

    The people I know, would not be coerced into being included in a third
    party commercial database in order to receive email communication.

    In fact, they'd be rather incensed being coerced into some unproven
    commercial venture, and one that was not controllable by themselves.

    I also don't know of "auto-response" systems (like purchase receipts)
    or any support service, that would respond to the AccuSpam "spam ".

    When Bill Gates and Microsoft (who seem to have some influence) are
    proposing another "technical/enforceable" solution - we should listen.

    There is no reputable technical review that in any way supports the
    contentions that AccuSpam is any "solution" at all to spam control.
     
    Last edited: 2004/08/16
    yourbuddy,
    #46
  8. 2004/08/16
    AccuSpam

    AccuSpam Inactive

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    When did an auto-response that says "I received your email with above subject" become spam?

    Many, many, many companies and individuals use auto-responses.

    If you send me an email, I have a right to respond to you and tell you I received your email.



    The same response I would get if I told them that their email address is stored on my ISP when they email me.

    They obviously granted permission for their email address to be stored on servers I use, else they would not email me.

    Duh!

    As a tangent, most individuals do not even own their email address. It is rented (licensed) from the ISP they use and the ISP has a clause in their contract where they can terminate at any time for any reason. So your whole concept of privacy and ownership of email addresses is out of touch with reality from several different angles.
     
    AccuSpam,
    #47
  9. 2004/08/16
    AccuSpam

    AccuSpam Inactive

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    So why the heck are you still using email?

    I have already explained to you that ISPs store your email address when you send email.

    Do you think ISPs are immune from being sold? Why is AccuSpam.com more evil or risky than JoeBlow.com ISP?

    Dude, when are you going to give up on this ridiculous argument?

    Do you know any REALISTIC way to keep your email address private without using it? If yes, I'd really like to know your methods!



    So none of you send email then?

    You can not possibly know the "proven" (what ever that is) status of every ISP you send email through. You saying we must be a financial analyst of ISPs in order to use email?

    Dude you are definitely bizarre! No wonder you live in a "far, far away place" (as quoted from your forum signature).




    How many times do I have to repeat myself? I already rebutted you and made it very clear that client side anti-spam can not do many of the things some people need an anti-spam tool to do. Go review my previous posts.

    As well I also told you that AccuSpam is correlating statistical data among all users in a way that can not be done if the whitelist is stored on the client. The power of AccuSpam comes from this and so NO YOU CAN NOT DO what AccuSpam does in Outlook plugin.

    Period! Get it in your thick skull please.




    They do not need to. The AccuSpam user still receives their email. If you tried AccuSpam, you might have some clue and stop these nonsense posts.

    How many times do I have to repeat, "AccuSpam is NOT a C/R anti-spam system ".

    Period!



    LOL. When has Bill Gates and Microsoft *EVER* done any thing original? They make $ by copying other people's inventions (which they do quite well). Hashcash and the other Microsoft "ideas" are inventions created a long time before byothers. For example, Hashcash was the PennyBlack project at IBM.

    Hmmm. You keep mentioning Microsoft's anti-spam plans. Maybe your motivation to attack AccuSpam is because perhaps you own a lot of Microsoft stock.




    How many times do I have to repeat, "Correct. We are new. So what is your point? "

    Do not worry, the technical reviews are coming...

    But what is the big deal that you feel so compelled to try to spread libel about AccuSpam? Try it if you want to find out if it works. Or do not try it. I do not care. You do not need a technical review to find out if it works for you.

    I have counted several instances of malicious libel you have posted here, and you have yet to correct yourself. You stated you have a Law degree, so you will have no excuse if I have our attorney reports your posts to the moderator of WindowsBBS. I am asking you kindly one more time to please stop spreading libel. You have a right to express an opinion, but you are phrasing your posts as factual data about AccuSpam, when in fact it is false and libel. If you force me to keep coming here to rebutt your libel, then it is going to be less expensive for me to call my attorney. You have been warned twice now.
     
    Last edited: 2004/08/16
    AccuSpam,
    #48
  10. 2004/08/16
    AccuSpam

    AccuSpam Inactive

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    For the record, I have absolutely no interest in the $ value of someone's email address.

    I have already resoundly rebutted "yourbuddy" ridiculous argument that email addresses are less private because they are stored on AccuSpam.com's server, when we all know that our email addresses are stored on the ISPs of the recipients we send email to (and actually many other ISPs and networks between source and destination).

    But for the sake of additional analysis, let us just fathom how much those email addresses might be worth to me if I was an evil person and wanted to sell them.

    How much do you think an email address is worth, given a spammer can harvest 1000s per day off the web merely by running a robot program and given spammers can find one person in AOL to steal 80 million email addresses?

    I would bet that an email address is not worth more than a few pennies if sold in bulk.

    So if we have 1000 AccuSpam users and 100 Approved Senders per user, then 100,000 email addresses might return a few $1000s if sold.

    Do you really think I am going to risk my career reputation over a few $1000? I can make a few $1000 by doing one programming contract.

    Even if you extrapolate that out to 10,000 users (which might take a year or more and will be clear to everyone if AccuSpam is bonafide or not), you are not talking more than few tens of $1000s.

    I make between $150,000 - $350,000 per year on my http://coolpage.com business alone. I spend less than $500 a month on AccuSpam expenses.

    Why the heck would I risk jail for few tens of $1000s? Just does not make any sense.

    Besides I simply would not do it, even if it would return $millions, because I have a family, I love sports outdoors, I have a conscience, etc.. There is no amount of $ that could motivate me to risk jail time or to voilate my ethics. Period.

    Twice I have been offered more than $1 million for coolpage.com and I have refused. I love what I do for a career. I pour my heart and soul into it, and I love to try to create things that help people. That feedback makes my life happy.

    "yourbuddy" you are simply way off target. I do not know what your motivation is. Perhaps you are that "highly technical person" who runs the DCC who called me a "Kook" at the IETF last year when I proposed AccuSpam to him. So be it. Many people have doubted me in the past, but I have rarely failed.

    I apologize for getting personal here in public forum about factual topic "spam ", but "yourbuddy" has personalized this debate and in a libelous manner.


    Kind Regards,
    Shelby Moore III

    CEO 3Dize, Inc. (coolpage.com)
    CEO DownloadFAST.com, Inc.
    founder and main programmer of AccuSpam.com* (AntiViotic.com)
    main programmer of Cool Page* (199:cool:, Art-O-Matic* (1996-8), WordUp* (1986-90), TurboJet (1988)
    contributing programmer to DownloadFAST.com* (2001-), Corel Painter* (1993-5), Corel ArtDabbler, EOS PhotoModeler (1996), FONTZ! (1988)

    shelby@coolpage.com

    * denotes major involvement in massive multi-year R&D projects with millions of characters (1000s of pages) of code
     
    AccuSpam,
    #49
  11. 2004/08/16
    AccuSpam

    AccuSpam Inactive

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    Humbly I must thank "yourbuddy ".

    Apparently our enabled userbase count in AccuSpam has ballooned by 20 - 30% overnight, probably because of the old marketing axiom that any promotion (discussion, public activity) creates interest, even if the protagonist is negative.

    Inflow is proportional to outflow in marketing apparently, although spam methods have very low (0.0001%) proportion.

    20 - 30% is not spam proportion! It must be relevant to this thread!
     
    AccuSpam,
    #50
  12. 2004/08/16
    Johanna

    Johanna Inactive Alumni

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    Whew! I've been out of town for the last few days, and am catching up on the threads. This "conversation" has escalated into a shouting match. For the record, I have NO OPINION about AccuSpam, having never heard of it (until now!) or tried it. I do have an opinion about SPAM, however- you have a delete key on your keyboard, correct? Use it. As far as privacy goes- nothing online is private- NOTHING. I use my real name as my screen handle because three quarters of the BBS could find out my street address in a New York minute, if they really wanted to know. Assuming anything on the internet is a "secret" is foolish.

    AccuSpam will succeed or fail on its own merit. (Ain't capitalism wonderful?)
    Shelby Moore, I wish you every success with your projects. If you are making money honestly, and having fun doing it, more power to you! Don't waste your time accusing people of having "thick skulls" because they question your motives. Just present the FACTS, and let your customers decide for themselves. Remember, yourbuddy, Incredimail is popular with consumers, despite a dozen good reasons to stay away from it, but each computer user has a choice, and what is acceptable to one person, may not be to another. The public will decide if AccuSpam is trash or treasure, and will support it accordingly. WE don't have to defend it, or trash it.

    Johanna
     
    Johanna,
    #51
  13. 2004/08/16
    yourbuddy

    yourbuddy Inactive

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    Shelby Moore III

    The third yet. Don't things deteriorate with copies? :)

    I have directly questioned the breach of confidentiality, by the user, of
    using your system. I have directly questioned your systems usefulness.

    Your "cartooney threats" of legal action are bombastic nonsense.
    Yes, call your Lawyer so that they can have a good laugh over you.

    Your nonsense will now be ignored, week-end is over. :)
     
    yourbuddy,
    #52
  14. 2004/08/16
    Rockster2U

    Rockster2U Geek Member

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    YourBuddy:
    Glad to hear your weekend is over - now we can get a much needed break from "your nonsense ". As an impartial observer or one who started out as an impartial observer, I'd advise you against ever practicing law - stick to your day job - you aren't a very effective advocate.
    ;)
     
    Rockster2U,
    #53
  15. 2004/08/16
    Johanna

    Johanna Inactive Alumni

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    Rockster, there is a difference between having a law degree and being a lawyer. My 6 year old doesn't know it yet, but she is going to law school. Some people are born attorneys. Sigh.

    Johanna
     
    Johanna,
    #54
  16. 2004/08/16
    yourbuddy

    yourbuddy Inactive

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    Rockster ...

    What you think, is none of my business :)
     
    yourbuddy,
    #55
  17. 2004/08/16
    balo

    balo Inactive

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    I know this will be hard to believe but I literaly get No Spam whatsoever. What accounts for this? I maintain 2 E-mail addresses. One is on my regular ISP which is only given to close frioends, family and business associates. The other is on Yahoo, although Hotmail would serve the same purpose. Whenever I have to use an E-mail address Online I use the Yahoo address. Whatever span accrues from this goes into the Bulk Yahoo mailing where I delete it without even looking at it.

    This works perfectly.
     
    balo,
    #56
  18. 2004/08/16
    AccuSpam

    AccuSpam Inactive

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    I did state that personally I have no interest in the value of selling AccuSpam users' email addresses. This is not a legally binding statement, it is just an insight into my personal thinking. None of the statements I make in a public forum are legally binding on AccuSpam (or any other business I work for), because I am not qualified to legally re-interpret the licenses of those businesses. That is what I pay a lawyer to do. And I am not going to run my every post to a public forum through a lawyer, so I must make a general disclaimer that everything I write in a public forum is merely personal opinion and not legally binding on the businesses.

    But since I currently own 100% of AccuSpam (and the other businesses I work for), my personal thinking carries a lot weight.

    However, I realized that I did not address my personal intention should I ever sell AccuSpam. For the record my personal intention (not legally binding... read the license for legally binding verbage) is that should I ever sell AccuSpam, I would make my best effort (if possible) to post an public alert to all AccuSpam users so that they could decide whether to remove their and their senders' email addresses from the AccuSpam database (which they can do at any time by Login at AccuSpam.com).

    Again I apologize to the extent that I showed my frustration in the debate with "yourbuddy ". I agree AccuSpam will be judged on it's merits and value to consumers in the market place. Thanks.

    -Shelby Moore
    http://AccuSpam.com
     
    AccuSpam,
    #57
  19. 2004/08/16
    AccuSpam

    AccuSpam Inactive

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    Maybe you have discovered a very good solution to spam. Do you feel it is the algorithms used by Yahoo or the limited public exposure you allow for your Yahoo address?

    Do you feel confident enough to post your Yahoo email address in public forums like this one?

    I am confident:

    shelby@coolpage.com

    I am not knowledgeable on which anti-spam algorithms Yahoo is using, but I am skeptical as to whether all your incoming spam would be caught if you use your yahoo email address more publicly.

    For business, I would find it very constraining to not be able to use my email address in public venues that are more accessible to spammer robots, such as on my business card, web site, forums, etc.

    My underlying point being that it may be reasonable to use an email address in a limited manner for some time and be lucky enough to avoid spammer lists (did that successfully for shelby@coolpage.com for a long time by not using it freely as I would like to). But it only takes one spammer to get your email address, then usually gets shared, sold and dispersed out to many lists.

    So you use Yahoo as your spam address, the address you use freely, so then we are back to evaluating which anti-spam performs the best, Yahoo or...
     
    Last edited: 2004/08/16
    AccuSpam,
    #58
  20. 2004/08/16
    TonyT

    TonyT SuperGeek Staff

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    This I understand completely, I use the same solution for my personal email address at cox.net. I get no spam at my cox address because:
    1. I use my yahoo address for online forms at web sites
    2. I have instructed my friends who email me never to forward my messages and I have taught them how to use BCC instead of CC.
    3. I get very little mail at my personal address, maybe 5-8 messages/day at most. (I still use the telephone a lot!)
    4. I check my yahoo acount bi monthly unless I am expecting a message there.

    In essence, I do not need antispam for my cox account. If I ever do need antispam for that account, I have 6 others at cox that I have already established and can easily switch addresses.

    I do need anti spam for my business accounts at domains I own and/or manage.
     
    Last edited: 2004/08/16
    TonyT,
    #59
  21. 2004/08/16
    Zander

    Zander Geek Member Alumni

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    AccuSpam
    I think you misread balo's post.
    balo's using the Yahoo account for online activities and that's where the spam goes. I myself have taken this approach. I used to get a lot of spam with my old ISP. I'd used the address on the web, so.... About 2 1/2 years ago I switched ISPs. Since then, I've never given out that address to anybody other than family and friends. Well, I guess there's two exceptions. I used it when I signed up with this board and I also used it when I signed up for Fred Langa's Langalist. I also have a Hotmail account that I use for anything else I need an email address for. In the 2 1/2 years I've had the account I received maybe 4 or 5 spam emails in the ISP account. My username isn't all that odd a name that it's quite likely the ones I received were just a lucky hit by some program that generates addresses.

    Having said that I would agree with what Johanna said. I would have said it myself sooner but I could never put it into words like she can (wish I had that gift) :) .

    Also, thanks to both Arie and Fred. I'm quite confident that both have kept my address private.
     
    Last edited: 2004/08/16
    Zander,
    #60
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