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When to Reboot XP

Discussion in 'Windows XP' started by Johanna, 2004/03/09.

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  1. 2004/03/30
    BillyBob Lifetime Subscription

    BillyBob Inactive

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    LOL


    To me, the above quote does not indicate a that all is running well. Could some of ti be due to a bad PS ?

    BillyBob
     
    BillyBob,
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  2. 2004/03/30
    reboot

    reboot Inactive

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    "I have been monitoring with Norton Utilities... "=Problem #1
    NU is a huge resource hog, say goodbye.
    "evidence of crashes and "slowdowns ", and XP is not an exeption "=Problem #2
    It's not XP that's a problem, it's shoddy software.
    "memory use is 16%, and after some hours af heavy use it goes to 55+% "=Problem #3
    So what if it's 55%? Memory is meant to be used, and if Problem #2 didn't exist, that ram would be freed up when closing the program.
    I have been using XP for the past 60 days and counting, without even a soft restart, and currently my ram usage is at 23%, with 2 servers running, serving 4 files currently, and this browser open.
    During that time (60 days +), I have edited, encoded, and burned over 70 SVCD's from .avi, checked email countless times, browsed thousands of web pages, chatted on irc for hours, played 452 games of Freecell...the list goes on and on, and still no sign of slowing down.
    If it's NOT crappy software (and I have my share of apps of "questionable origin "), then why is it that I can run this long, and other's can't even get through one day?

    Current uptime: 1443 hrs, 55 min, 27 sec
     
    Last edited: 2004/03/30
    reboot,
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  4. 2004/03/30
    sparrow

    sparrow Inactive

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    charlesvar,

    You read correctly. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

    The two drives I disabled were an old 5 1/4 floppy I don't need now, and a dvd that I thought would be fun, but found I rarely use. No need to waste power.

    BillyBob,

    "Both 98SE and XP ?" YES!

    "Also reads like even if XP could fix them they would only come back "
    Of course, but, like I said elsewhere, I use the programs I like, even if they're not perfect (and there hasn't been a perefect one written yet: whitness the many patches to XP).

    The next generation (NOT version) of programs will, hopefully, be able to repair problems like I mentioned (see Scientific American this year, I don't recall which issue).

    "For my own info I need to ask. Why should that 55% cause a problem ? "
    No reason, but While I take a break, why not repair memory? It doesn't cost anything. and it all works fine when I resume.

    I admit I have some ideosyncracies. :)
     
    sparrow,
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  5. 2004/03/30
    sparrow

    sparrow Inactive

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    Hi reboot,

    "NU is a huge resource hog, say goodbye." I agree, but:
    "currently my ram usage is at 23%" - what do you use? I wouldn't bother to use sysinfo when I can just glance at the screen. I have plenty of resourses.

    "So what if it's 55%? Memory is meant to be used, and if Problem #2 didn't exist, that ram would be freed up when closing the program. "
    Ah, but it wasn't! That figure is while "idling ". The memory should have been released, but wasn't. So If I know that, why not release it?

    I congratulate you on a great machine with perfect programs, but "workarounds" is the name of the game IMHO. You're missing some fun!
     
    sparrow,
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  6. 2004/03/30
    BillyBob Lifetime Subscription

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    sparrow

    How much RAM do you have ?

    Right now I am using 146meg out of 512 ( 28% ) according to Task Manager.

    We have just finished playing Golf on the Internet.

    My CPU usage is only 4%.

    And I have not rebooted since I fired this thing up a 7 AM. The kids have been beating hello out of it with their games etc. And and so have I.

    I have to go along with reboot. I think Norton is killing you.

    I think that luxsury is costing you. And it may well be the cause of some of your hangups etc.

    Have you given any thought to disabling Norton and see what the results are ?

    BillyBob
     
    Last edited: 2004/03/30
    BillyBob,
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  7. 2004/03/30
    sparrow

    sparrow Inactive

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    BillyBob,

    Please see machine specs below.

    At this moment I'm using 186mb of 768, with Norton's system doctor (6 sensors) running, 4 mozilla windows open (and several tabs in each) an explorer window, sysinfo, mail, and notepad, and the swap file use is 21mb, cpu is running at 1%, and 55mb of disk cache is being used. I've been up since about noon - last soft boot to refresh memory. I leave machine running unless I'll be away for more than a couple hours. I unplug it in thunderstorms :) or if I'm out of town.

    I don't really feel that I have a problem; I'm really just surprised that there seems to be such an issue and concern about rebooting. I just don't hesitate if there's a need - a matter of opinion, I agree.
     
    sparrow,
    #66
  8. 2004/03/30
    Johanna

    Johanna Inactive Alumni Thread Starter

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    Sparrow, you shouldn't have to reboot to refresh the memory in XP, and you should consider adding an Uninterruptible Power Supply to protect your comp from electrical surges and lightning. It sounds like you have other problems, anyway, that rebooting won't help.

    BillyBob, I'm running NIS 2003 and NU 2002 is installed with no appreciable decline in resources because of it.

    Reboot,
    In XP, is there any difference between a restart and a cold boot?
    TIA
    Johanna
     
    Johanna,
    #67
  9. 2004/03/30
    sparrow

    sparrow Inactive

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    Johanna,

    "It sounds like you have other problems, anyway, that rebooting won't help." I'm sure. :)

    "reboot to refresh the memory in XP" I'm not saying that memory leak is necessarily the fault of XP, but a boot fixes it, warm, cold, soft, hard; a boot is a boot is a boot.

    It's a jump to the starting location of the bios, the same place the cpu starts when the power comes on. and the OS is read into memory ignoring whatever might be there before the boot. Then programs, likewise. Memory might be full of junk beyond where it's been refreshed, but the little machine acts as if it's pristine, and it is.

    It has nothing to do with what OS you use, XP, unix, 95.

    Software can jump, the reset button grounds a pin of the cpu which has the same effect, and cold boot means turning the power off and back on.
     
    Last edited: 2004/03/30
    sparrow,
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  10. 2004/03/30
    BillyBob Lifetime Subscription

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    Theses lines from one of your previous posts say YOU HAVE PROBLEMS

    And those problem MAY or MAY NOT be partly due to Norton.

    What is causing the CPU at to run at 100% ( in a tight loop ) ?

    XP will not fix bad software. Or hardware either.

    WHY ? are you losing your web connection ?

    I was also having slowdowns and an occasional lockup until I paid attention find out that it was only after I ran the PRINTER. cause=WRONG DRIVERS. Or right drivers but wrong Printer. Your choice.

    Johanna

    I am glad Norton works for you. It did for me in98SE but not in XP Pro. And I think it was because I did not find what XP was running that conflicted with it.

    BillyBob
     
    BillyBob,
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  11. 2004/03/31
    dobhar Lifetime Subscription

    dobhar Inactive

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    Hey charlesvar...

    I'm the "Kent" (hey quit pushing I'll give everybody an autograph...:D) who asked Fred Langa the "Reboot" question in the Langalist newsletter...I actually asked this question to Fred because of this thread. I valued his opinion so I figured I would ask. I also posted this same question to another guy who has a win2k newsletter and he states that he starts his PC in the morning and shut it down at night when he is done.

    I'm with Jim on the reboot question...
    As I stated in the LangaList newsletter I leave my WinXP Pro workstation on 24/7 (work related (on call/dial in) reasons) but reboot when I am done to refresh the OS. I use a password on this PC so it's always at the password screen when I want to use it. I will however shut the workstation off if I will be away for a few days for Power outages/lightning strike (had one hit a power relay station down the street last summer...sounded like someone shot a shotgun right beside me) reasons.
     
    Last edited: 2004/03/31
    dobhar,
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  12. 2004/03/31
    martinr121 Lifetime Subscription

    martinr121 Inactive

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    Kent:
    For Lightning, pull the plug from the wall, disconnect 'phone/dsl line. Learned this the hardway, machine off, lightning, stuff fried.

    Don't know about cable ISP connection.

    Martin
     
    martinr121,
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  13. 2004/03/31
    noahdfear

    noahdfear Inactive

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    Unhook it too.
     
    noahdfear,
    #72
  14. 2004/03/31
    TonyT

    TonyT SuperGeek Staff

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    FYI

    Memory leaks are not caused by the operating system nor are they corrected by the operating system. This holds true for windows 95, 98, NT, ME, 2K, XP. No windows operating system will correct memory leaks.

    Memory leaks are caused by POORLY CODED software ONLY.

    Some software is coded in such a way so as to remain partially resident in memory after the program has been closed. This is NOT a memory leak, but a TSR (Terminate & Stay Resident), and is different than software processes and applications that load at boot time.

    However, there are software that are coded to not remain resident after closing but do so anyway. Some process or DLL remains resident in memory and continues to use up memory little by little.

    There are also sioftware that are coded to remain resident, TSRs. And if poorly coded they too can be memory leaking applications.

    How to determine if have a memory leak?
    Tough question unless the actual rate at which it leaks ccan be readily and easily observed. Just because an XP system uses 15% memory at boot, and 5 hrs later is using 50%, does not mean there is a memory leak, it means only that memory is being used at that point in time.

    The way to tell is to open a suspect program after bootup, run it a bit, close it and then do NOTHING else until 5 hrs later. If memory continues to be consumed at an observable rate, then dump that program and use a better one.

    FYI, MS is a guilty as the rest, they make quite a few memory leaking programs, particulary some of the Office applications and add-ons, as well as Outlook Express. But later versions of OE and Office add-ons have been improved and will run more stably in XP than in earlier windows operating systems.
     
    TonyT,
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  15. 2004/03/31
    BillyBob Lifetime Subscription

    BillyBob Inactive

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    What are you thoughts on this Experiment related ( I believe ) to TonyTs' reply

    Shutdown ( Powered down ) Windows XP. Waited 5 minutes ( 2nd cup of coffee time )

    Restarted XP.

    1-Open TaskManager with Preformance tab selected. 120 meg of ram used. Processor at 2%
    2- Open Media Player and played some music Ram usage went to 145 meg. Processor up to 4%.
    3-Shut down Media Player. Ram back to 123meg. Processor back to 3%.

    I believe This is the way it is SUPPOSED to work.

    4-With Ram at 123 meg. Processor at 3%
    5-Opened and older version of Lotus 123. Ram up to 150meg. Processor at 8%.
    6--Shut down 123. RAM only dropped back to 135meg Processor did come back to 3%.

    That says that Lotus 123 may not only be ( IS ) the wrong version for XP but DOES NOT clean up after itself very well. But I do not use it enough to justify the cost of a new version.

    It also says that some of the trash left in RAM MAY CAUSE problems for something else.

    And I believe that enough of this type of action WILL lockup or severly slowdown the best of machines.

    And it IS NOT and OS problem. And XP will not fix it either.

    Right now I am at 131meg and 2%. I will have to see what gives when I shut down IE.

    BillyBob
     
    BillyBob,
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  16. 2004/03/31
    BillyBob Lifetime Subscription

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    Shut down IE. RAM back to 123 meg.

    That looks good to me.

    BB
     
    BillyBob,
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  17. 2004/03/31
    sparrow

    sparrow Inactive

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    Hi Tony,

    "How to determine if have a memory leak? "

    Great observations. TSRs, which originated in the days of DOS to get some multitasking ability, are mostly loaded at boot time. so their memory use is already included in the original 16%. I call anything that uses memory and doesn't release it on termination a leak, i.e., anything that puts part of memory out of reach of my ability to use it constructively. 40 gb of memory is abit much for a tsr!

    No matter what causes the improper use of RAM, I consider a reboot to be preventive maintainance. Why should I wait for a crash when a simple warm boot can avoid trouble?

    The 55% measurement is after all running software was closed (except for TSRs), and IMHO indicates a leak.

    I completely agree with your last paragraph. One of the programs I found to run the cpu at near 100% is winword.exe (97) - in the paragraph formatting function - I found out accidentally by recieving an overheat warning.

    But usually it's a small window waiting for a button to be "pressed" that runs at near 100%.
     
    sparrow,
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  18. 2004/03/31
    BillyBob Lifetime Subscription

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    I made a mistake in my previous reply.

    The figures there reflect Page File not RAM. I was looking at wrong thing.

    Fresh boot.

    122 page file and 172 meg RAM used.

    Loaded Links LS 2003.

    214meg page file with 252 meg RAM usage.

    Shut down golf and RAM came back to 173 but PF only came back to 135.

    Sorry for the miss-leading info.

    And the CPU does run at 35% to 40% while sitting there waiting for me to take a swing at the ball.

    BillyBob
     
    Last edited: 2004/03/31
    BillyBob,
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  19. 2004/03/31
    BillyBob Lifetime Subscription

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    Is that saying that you reboot ( restart ) because you think you need to or do you have to ?

    40 gb of memory is abit much for a tsr

    Are you sure you do not mean 40meg ?

    The 55% measurement is after all running software was closed (except for TSRs), and IMHO indicates a leak.

    That 55% may depend on how much actuall ram you have.

    The 252meg that shows when I run Golf is just about 50% of my 512meg. It would be about all of 256.

    But 252meg minus 172meg means that Golf is only using 80meg.

    BB
     
    BillyBob,
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  20. 2004/03/31
    BillyBob Lifetime Subscription

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    I forgot about this.

    If you have 768meg of RAM and the usage goes to 55% then I believe you have some seriously mis-behaving software.

    And not knowing what other stuf you have loaded I would say that Norton may well be the cause.

    BB
     
    Last edited: 2004/03/31
    BillyBob,
    #79
  21. 2004/03/31
    TonyT

    TonyT SuperGeek Staff

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    Not entirely correct. The programs that you opened, used and then closed are have TSRs in them. Some memory is still being used by the APPLICATIONS within the programs.

    Differentiate between application and program. They can mean the same thing, but they can also have different meanings. Not wanting to get into semantics, there are differences between a program and an application.

    For instance, you opoen the program called Paint Shop Pro. It is a large program and consists of many separate individual applications, e.g. filters, brushes, tubes, color palatte, menus, etc etc etc. Most of the time, these smaller separate applications are unique DLLs. (a DLL can be a program/application).

    There are some reasons why a program is coded to have TSRs:
    1. it will load faster the next time it is launched.
    2. The TSR may be of a type that keeps a handle on recently used files.
    3. The TSR may keep track of recently used files, esp those files that are used in other related programs, like office suites.
    4. The TSR may be a background process such as antivirus, firewall, etc.

    A TSR is nopt necessarily loaded at boot time, not is a program or application that loads at boot time a TSR. It stands for "Terminate and Stay Resident ". If it loads at boot time, its was never terminated, was it! It's just something that loads at boot, that's all it is.

    A memory leak is not a TSR. A memory leak is a drain of memory, slowly or rapidly, more often slowly. It is drained because a program fails to COMPLETELY close out the processe(s) it was using and is caused by poor code with errors in the code.

    Because win2k and xp handle memory better and differently that earlier versions of windows, it appears that the operating system will correct memory leaks. But truthfully, it is impossible for the operating system to correct a memory leak. The only way to do so is to reboot and NOT run the program that leaks or to rewrite the software code itself.

    You mentioned Norton suite earlier. System Works consists of about 11-15 separate major large programs, each with separate individual applications that will use memory. Some of them will get loaded partially into memory EVEN IF YOU HAVE system works configured to NOT use certain features.

    NAV is another example. Disable script blocking and the script blocking service. But script blocking service still will load partially into memory because there's a registry key that loads it at boot time. It is completely unnecessary to load it at boot though.

    Realize that a TSR is NOT a memory leak.
    http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/m/memory_leak.html
    http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/m/memory_leak.html
    http://www.memorymanagement.org/glossary/m.html#memory-2
     
    Last edited: 2004/03/31
    TonyT,
    #80
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