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External Harddisk Rack

Discussion in 'PC Hardware' started by Christer, 2003/12/16.

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  1. 2003/12/16
    Christer

    Christer Geek Member Staff Thread Starter

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    Hello all!

    Today I bought and installed an External Harddisk Rack in a 51/4" bay.

    I connected it as the Primary Slave and the power cable.

    I don´t have a second harddisk yet so, the Rack is empty.

    The Primary Master is jumpered as Master.

    Now the computer won´t boot, it doesn´t detect the Primary Master.

    If I change the jumper setting to Force Slave, then it detects the Primary Master but it takes a loooooong time and finally it asks for a bootable device.

    Anyone out there who knows what´s up?

    Thanks for Your time,
    Christer
     
    Christer,
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  2. 2003/12/16
    Daizy

    Daizy Inactive

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    What...praytell, is in the rack? :)
     
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  4. 2003/12/16
    Daizy

    Daizy Inactive

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    *edit*
    Sorry...if I read right... you don't have anything in this rack. You can't hook up an empty rack to the controller and expect the IDE detection to work. There's nothing to be detected. But it will try.
     
    Daizy,
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  5. 2003/12/16
    brett

    brett Inactive Alumni

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    Erm ...
     
    brett,
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  6. 2003/12/16
    Daizy

    Daizy Inactive

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    Hiya brett...miss me? :D
    My brain is still lightning quick as you can see! :rolleyes:
     
    Daizy,
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  7. 2003/12/16
    Christer

    Christer Geek Member Staff Thread Starter

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    Hi guys!

    Are You telling me that I must have a harddisk installed in the Rack, otherwise it will mess it all up?

    I was under the impression that the Rack only extends the IDE-cable and power cable and with no harddisk in the Rack it would be as if nothing was there.

    My idea was to use my old harddisk for backup purposes and have it in a drawer for safe keeping with the Rack empty under normal use.

    Christer ...... :confused: ......

    Edited:

    If it doesn´t work as I anticipated, there is little point for me to have the Rack since I will not be swapping harddisks.
     
    Last edited: 2003/12/16
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  8. 2003/12/16
    Daizy

    Daizy Inactive

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    That's exactly what I'm saying. You were misled. Sorry. :(
     
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  9. 2003/12/16
    giles

    giles Inactive

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    Hi Christer.

    Lots of people are running those racks for versatility and backup. Most have their system set up so the C drive is in IDE-0 by itself. IDE-1 has the rack on master and the cdrom on slave. You can run just fine without the hard disk plugged in the rack.

    If you have two cdroms or cdrom and dvd then put either one on IDE-0 as slave and set C as master. Rack on IDE-1 as master and the other cdrom or dvd as slave. Most all modern cdroms will run just fine with the hdd on the same IDE. Only the older cdroms would cut the speed down. If you have this situation, try it and see if the speed on your system is slower.

    This allows you to plug in various hdds in the rack and also to use it as backup for your data. Then you can unplug it so if something happens to the system you won't loose all your stuff.

    You can also set the hdds for "Cable Select" then you can put the rack on IDE-0 like you tried. You can run just the C drive without the second drive being in place.

    That's a good move using the rack. I have a number of hdds in trays that I can switch depending on what I'm doing.

    Giles
     
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  10. 2003/12/16
    Christer

    Christer Geek Member Staff Thread Starter

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    Hi Giles!

    The first move on my part, when it didn´t work, was to phone a friend who is rather good at this. The first thing he said was to check that the drive was NOT jumpered to Cable Select.

    I checked and it wasn´t, it was jumpered to Master. Therefore I tried to jumper it to Force Slave but neither did that work.

    I´ll try cable Select tomorrow and if it works, You´ve made my day!

    About mixing CD/DVD-ROMs and HDDs, it was adviced against that when I suggested putting the DVD as Primary Slave, the CD-R/RW as Secondary Master (to be able to boot from it) and the second HDD as Secondary Slave.
    The speed impact on the HDDs was the issue since the channels would run at the slower speeds.

    According to My computer > Properties > Hardware > Device manager > IDE ATA/ATAPI > Controller, for both optical devices it says "DMA if available" and "Multi-Word DMA Mode 2 ".

    Take a look at this thread and scroll down to Calculus' comments and the following discussion.

    Another issue:

    Does this indicate that it is possible to boot from a CD-ROM which is set as Slave on either channel?
    I´ve been adviced that it is not possible.

    Thanks for Your comments!

    Yours ...... :confused: ...... as always,
    Christer
     
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  11. 2003/12/16
    giles

    giles Inactive

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    Hi.

    If you're going to run a single hdd on IDE-0 then the drive should be jumpered as per instructions for that particular drive as a "single drive ". Some drives will only run as the only drive on an IDE port if they are jumpered as master and some will only run as the only drive on an IDE port if them are jumpered neutrally. You have to set the jumpers called for for that particular drive. However, most all drives will run jumpered as slave whether there is a drive installed as master or not. (The C bootable drive is another matter since most systems usually look at IDE-0/master.)

    If that drive will not work on IDE-0 jumpered as master and it is the only drive then it has to be jumpered neutrally or the jumper pulled altogether.

    It should not be jumpered as "cable select ". The reason that statement is made is because 99% of all drives are jumpered as master or slave or neutral so everybody says to be sure they are not jumpered as "cable select ". There is no reason not to jumper them as cable select, it's just that nobody ever does so everybody says don't.

    In order to use cable select you need to replace the 40-pin ide cables you're using with the new 80-pin cables (or the older 40-pin cable select cables). The only difference is that pin 28 is grounded on one of the plugs and is not grounded on the other plug of the cable. Both drives are jumpered to cable select and which one is primary or secondary is determined by which one is on which plug of the cable. That way you never have to worry about having one or two hdds installed. Works great and solves a lot of problems in some configurations for the price of a couple of dumb cables. Of course if you're using the new 80-pin IDE cables you're all set. They are all configured for cable select with the master being the end plug.

    http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/if/ide/confCS-c.html

    Having the C drive and a rack both on IDE-0 is a perfect example of when to use cable select. You can use or not use the rack as needed without affecting the C drive.

    The speed at which data is read from a cdrom or dvd is much much slower than a hdd however the speed at which the data is transmitted to the computer is the key. It all depends on the ATA speed of the device. Most cdroms and dvds today will work very well on the same IDE port as a hdd. Easy to try and see. If you're running an ATA100 hdd and an ATA66 cdrom or dvd then the data will be transmitted to the computer at the ATA66 speed. A little slower but if you're not sitting there reading data from the hdd all day you probably won't notice the difference. A small price to pay to get the convenience of a rack setup.

    Essentially you would be transferring 66 million per second rather than 100 million per second. When I'm working I seldom read more than 1 million at a time. Big deal. I wasted a few split seconds, around 1/66 of a second I think.

    You always want to run the hdd, cdrom, and dvd using DMA if possible and the highest possible. This reads the data directly into memory and uses much less of the CPU's time. DMA means Direct Memory Access. Everybody should make sure their settings enable DMA on all their drives.

    I run my cdrom on the second IDE port set as slave with a rack on master. With or without a hdd in the rack I can boot from the cdrom without any problems and do often.

    My rack hdds on the second ide port are all ATA100. I run hdds in the rack as master with a cdrom on as slave and have no slowdown problems at all. I write in excess of 10Gigs on the racks frequently. My main drive on C is ATA133 and the rack always seems as fast as C is. My C drive is capable of SATA but I run it IDE. I have a SATA port but don't use it. ATA133 is fast enough. I don't really need SATA150.

    Consider another solution. Add an IDE card for additional ports. Gives you lots of flexibility.

    Hope this helps.

    Giles
     
    Last edited: 2003/12/16
    giles,
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  12. 2003/12/17
    Rockster2U

    Rockster2U Geek Member

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    Hate to break the news but CS is the only way to go here. Your friend that counselled differently should now be considered as one who knows enough to be dangerous.

    Hey Brett - Cacheman for Christmas stocking stuffers?

    ;)
     
    Rockster2U,
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  13. 2003/12/17
    brett

    brett Inactive Alumni

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    It's the ideal gift for persons who have annoyed you throughout the year; I have reserved a copy for my wife :D
     
    brett,
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  14. 2003/12/17
    Christer

    Christer Geek Member Staff Thread Starter

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    Hi again, Giles!

    Thanks for the comprehensive explanation of different possibilities and consequences!!

    I have a 80 conductor / 40 pin cable for the HDD and a 40 conductor / 40 pin cable for the optical devices and the latter is probably not of the CS variant. Anyway, it isn´t suitable for mixing the drive types.

    I now have my HDD, jumpered to CS as Primary Master and the empty Rack as Primary Slave. The CD-R/RW is Secondary Master and the DVD-ROM is Secondary Slave.

    The computer carries out a normal boot and start up sequence ...... :D ...... !

    I´m considering buying the new round IDE-cables and then maybe I´ll try to mix the devices. Even if I won´t mix the devices, it seems to be a good idea to get better air circulation in the case.

    Now, what is the definition of an "older" CD-ROM, in this fast developing computer world?

    My devices were released some three years ago and as I mentioned earlier they run in "Multi-Word DMA Mode 2 ". That corresponds to ATA 16.7 but the read performance, as You point out, is "hundreds" of times slower than that.

    There is a conciderable difference between ATA 16.7 and Your example of ATA 66.

    That turns another recent piece of advice on its back. Thinking about it, the boot order in the BIOS says nothing about controllers, masters or slaves. It defines devices which are detected during the boot process.

    Well, that´s always a possibility but I´m reluctant to load my Power Supply (250 W) any more than it already is.

    Oh yes ...... :D ...... :cool: ...... it does and thanks again!

    Hi Rockster!

    Well, I´ve suspected that for a long time now. He knows too much and is probably worn out by questions from friends and friends of his friends.

    In his defence in this particular case, I have to say that I had to explain what a Rack is in the first place. He doesn´t use one himself and was obviously speculating because I don´t have an answer is not included in his vocabulary.

    Christer
     
    Last edited: 2003/12/17
    Christer,
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  15. 2003/12/17
    giles

    giles Inactive

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    Hi christer.

    WAY TO GO!!! You are unique. The amount of systems with a CS setup can probably be counted on one leg of a seriously mad pit bull.

    As for the speed and specs of cdroms and dvds and mixing them with hdds, thats a whole other world. It's pretty touchy to suggest to someone that they lose 1/16 or 1/33 or 1/66 of a second on their hdd speed. If I get into that too deep I'm going to get some serious coming-down-on so I think I'll save it for a bright sunny day.

    Enjoy the rack. I had a rack setup as my C drive for awhile. I could boot another whole OS depending on which hdd I slipped in. That way I could totally isolate the OS and data from other OSs and data. Worked great and had a lot of fun. Good for experimenting with code.

    Remember that although the racks are usually "hot-swap" capable the system won't know that hdd is there so you have to reboot for the system to recognize it. Since you have to reboot, I usually just shut down and do the rack then boot back up.

    Giles
     
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  16. 2003/12/17
    Christer

    Christer Geek Member Staff Thread Starter

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    Hi Giles!

    Does it have the leg in its mouth ...... :p ...... ?

    If my maths hold water, then if letting my 100 ATA HDD run at 16.7 ATA, transfering 100MB would take 1/20 of a second longer (0.0499 seconds longer).

    My planned 120 GB HDD would take a full minute longer ...... :eek: ...... which brings up a different question that in this topic is rhetorical: What´s the hype on Serial ATA all about? It seems to me like it´s a race for high scores in benchmark tests which really isn´t that decisive.

    (I´ve read a lot of reviews and have decided on a HDD that shows top scores and I´ll be damned if I´m gonna run it at 16.7 ATA ...... :D ...... )

    I have read a discussion on this but I don´t remember where. The conclusion was that if You swap HDDs with the same number of partitions, then Windows wouldn´t know what happened.

    That´s not an issue for me though. I see the Rack as a convenient way to be able to take out a backup HDD, which I don´t want to have in the system under normal use and put it in a drawer for "safe" keeping.

    Maybe that drawer should be ...... :rolleyes: ...... on another planet?

    Christer
     
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  17. 2003/12/17
    BillyBob Lifetime Subscription

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    On the other side of the coin is the fact that in some cases slower is better.

    In both Automoblies AND Computers " Speed can kill "

    I have had files that downloaded at speeds in excess of 300kbps FAIL on me.

    I have never had a file that downloaded under 200kbps fail.

    That indicates to me that there may well be a weak link in the chain somewhere. Where it is I have no idea. It may well be right in my CPU. It may be my HD. I do not know.

    Whether it be writing to a device such or CDROM or too my Internal Backup HD I find the slower speeds to be by far more reliable.

    The results of downloading files, writing to an external device depend 100% on the weakest link in the chain between source and destination.

    Saving a few seconds is not worth it if the final results are corrupt.

    The above is my side of the story.

    BillyBob
     
    Last edited: 2003/12/17
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  18. 2003/12/17
    Christer

    Christer Geek Member Staff Thread Starter

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    Hi BillyBob!

    The part of my post(s) that You quoted was said rather tongue in cheek!

    I´m on 10Mbps and have never experienced failure du to speed but rather due to server infarction.

    What I have experienced, only once but never the less, is a CD that a friend burnt for me, containing a large number of pictures, some 250 MB. A few of them, say 5% were faulty. Either the colour wasn´t right or they were skewed.

    I´m not sure but I tend to put that down to high speed burning and a too small buffer.

    Christer
     
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  19. 2003/12/17
    BillyBob Lifetime Subscription

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    I am not sure either. But I would tend to agree. The buffer could be the weak link.

    I just check my Nero burner buffer. It is set a 2048KB ( default )

    If I try to burn a CD at 12x( 1,800kb/s ) ( default ) I get bad files on the CD

    I set it down to 10x ( 1,500kb/s ) no problems. And results in far less bad CDs. Takes a bit longer but with less problems it more than evens out I believe.

    BillyBob
     
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  20. 2003/12/17
    Christer

    Christer Geek Member Staff Thread Starter

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    Well, my old dinosaur is a 8/8/32 CD-R/RW so I don´t have those problems ...... :cool: ...... !

    You say that You checked Your Nero burn buffer to be set to 2048 kB.
    Where did You find that information?

    Under File > Preferences > Cache, I have the possibility to choose where the cache, files that are selected to be written, should be. I can choose any partition and designate a folder and the size is given as the free space on the respective partition.

    Under File > Preferences > Ultrabuffer, it says "Automatic configuration" and a greyed out user specification.

    Under Edit > Properties > Misc, I have a size setting for caching of small files to 64 kB.

    No cache size of 2048 kB anywhere that I can find.

    Christer
     
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  21. 2003/12/17
    BillyBob Lifetime Subscription

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    Where did You find that information?

    I got those readings from within the Nero Program itself using the variuous Icons along the Toolbar.

    I open Nero.

    Buffer is from the Choose Recorder Icon

    Speed Setting is from the New Compilation Icon.

    I have Nero Version 5.5.10.1

    BillyBob
     
    Last edited: 2003/12/17
    BillyBob,
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