Attn: Anone familiar with data recovery / reviving old hard drives- HELP STILL NEEDED

This is to call out help from the 'big guns' of hard drive repair and data recovery.

I already have a thread, here:

http://www.windowsbbs.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24995

Where I'm asking for help about recovering data from a hard drive which is not responding.

I have already gotten some help from people willing to offer advice and their advice is much appreciated. Nonetheless, I still am in a quandry. I have tried all their suggestions without luck.

I am hoping there are some experts in hard drives and/or data recovery which may see this and read the thread.

Again, the thread is here:

http://www.windowsbbs.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24995

Thank you from an increasingly frantic individual.

 

Hi.

Forget about the books. Sometimes the power or IDE cable won't reach if you plug the hdd in and sit it beside the case. The books were to sit the hdd on half-way up the case so the cables would reach.

If you got another hdd and switched the PCB's and they both acted the same then the problem isn't with the drive. I would try the hdd in another computer. Also, the PCB's used to be adjusted to the heads and timing characteristics. Changing the PCB's might not do any good at all. Don't know if they still are or not.

Also, you might have killed the master boot record. You might plug the drive in and boot from a floppy. Be sure you have a copy of FDISK on the floppy. Key:

fdisk /mbr

and hit the enter key. That will repair the mbr.

Also, check out this site for some free programs that might help: (The MBRTool is free.)

http://www.diydatarecovery.nl/

Does the system recognize the hard drive at all and if so what happens when you try to access it. Have your tried to plug the new hdd on the second ide port and try to access it. You will have to look at "My Computer" to see what drive letter it is. Drop by one of the local computer shops and see if they can access it on one of their systems.

Hang in there. Nothing you've said yet leads me to believe that the hdd is physically damaged.

Keep us informed. I''ll be out of town on Monday.

Giles

 

Thanks for the reply.

First, I apologize for the typo in the subject line. Should have read "ANYONE ", of course. No one will ever hire me as a typist!

Anyway... while I have MUCH more info in the other thread, let me address some of your points one by one:


<< The books were to sit the hdd on half-way up the case so the cables would reach. >>

Ahh. I was using a plastic cover off a stack of CDs for that.


<< If you got another hdd and switched the PCB's and they both acted the same then the problem isn't with the drive. >>

To clarify, the bad drive, call it 'drive 1', *ALWAYS* had recognition problems, even when I used the circuit board off of 'drive 2' (the newer identical hard drive). 'Drive 2' ALWAYS worked, even when the circuit board from 'drive 1' was used. Hence it couldn't be in the circuit board since the circuit board from 'drive 1' worked fine when installed on 'drive 2'.


<< I would try the hdd in another computer. >>

Did that. Also, as I mentioned in previous posts, I've tried, ultimately, 3 IDE controllers - 2 UDMA add-on boards and one motherboard controller. Same thing in all cases. Also 'drive 2' always worked in all cases. Hence it doesn't sound like the computer.


<< Also, the PCB's used to be adjusted to the heads and timing characteristics. Changing the PCB's might not do any good at all. >>

Well, as I mentioned, the PCB from 'drive 1' worked just fine on 'drive 2'. So the PCBs seem interchangable, reinforcing the problem being in 'drive 1' itself.


<< Also, you might have killed the master boot record. >>

Couldn't have - it's a recognition problem. The one time I actually got the drive to stay active long enough to boot NT, I was able to read all partitions. The MBR is only important once the drive is recognized on a hardware level.


<< http://www.diydatarecovery.nl/ >>

Speaking of which, are there any resources for hi-tech info on drive recovery on a hardware level?


<< Does the system recognize the hard drive at all ... >>

Nope. Only on rare occasions will it even be seen as connected to the contoller at all. It's as if the drive sends out signals of some kind but only rarely are those signals intelligible to the computer.

I would imagine if I had a controller specifically designed with a LOOONG timeout (one especially for recovery of bad drives), then I'd be able to recognize the drive enough to pull data off it sporadically. Although that's just a thought. I don't know WHAT kind of data is actually coming across the IDE cable.


<<... and if so what happens when you try to access it. >>

You may wish to read earlier posts I made. I mentioned that on RARE occasions when I was actually able to see the drive, I've gotten sporadic data. However usually the drive doesn't stay 'seen' long enough to ever boot to NT. My data is all on NTFS partitions. ONCE, and I don't know why, I had about a couple hours where I could almost always boot and see it... however it still would freeze when I tried to copy more than a file or two. Now it's back to only being 'seen' on 1/10 resets or so and can never get all the way to NT before the drive is invisible to NT by the time I open explorer.


<< Have your tried to plug the new hdd on the second ide port and try to access it. >>

One of the FIRST things I did! I've done much, much, more. 4-5 different IDE cables, all different positions on the IDE cables, different ports on each controller card, different PCI slots for the controller card, different BIOS settings. I spent hours and hours trying all the usual things (and a number of unusual things)


<< Drop by one of the local computer shops and see if they can access it on one of their systems. >>

I could... but with 3 different IDE controllers and 2 different computers I don't expect a different computer is going to do any good.


<< Hang in there. Nothing you've said yet leads me to believe that the hdd is physically damaged. >>

Then you need to go back and read my old posts

Seriously, though - I've tried many things PLUS the fact that I've tried the different PCB boards and the different controllers and the repeated success with an identical drive at least confirms that SOMETHING is amiss. I do believe that the physical aspects of the drive seem intact for the most part... but something electronic is amiss and interfering with the data. My hopes were that it was a problem with the circuit board... however when I swapped circuit boards and the drives behaved the same no matter which board was used, I became convinced it's something BEYOND the circuit board.

What I need is some idea how to force the drive to work.

Oh, and yes - COLD didn't work as well as I had hoped. While I thought I had limited success with freezing the drive, I have subsequently had little success with it. Also blasting cold air on the drive from the outside didn't improve my success. Indeed, it almost seems what DOES make it recognized a little more often is if the drive isn't powered up for a few hours then is.

I also make the observation that my success at getting the contoller to 'see' the drive upon boot is *NOT* impacted by whether I power down the system / drive or if I just hit the 'reset' button on the computer. This implies that the intermittent pattern of data coming from the drive is consistent - it's not just like data comes from the drive for a short period of time then stops. Those moments where the drive is 'seen' by the controller appears to simply be that the controller is trying to initialize the drive at a moment when the data was coming from it.

 

Ahhhhhhh.

I can see clearly now. Thank you for the notes. Very well done.

I would stop trying to boot that drive. I don't think you're ever going to get the data by trying to boot the drive. The problem is that Windows is a high-level language. That statement is misleading. The higher-level a computer language is the further it is from the actual machine level language, hince the "high-level" term. The lower level a language the more efficient it runs and the closer it works with the actual design of the computer. You need to boot from a floppy and try to get the data. I realize you have the data NTFS. You can get boot programs that recognize NTFS. Working with a dos type program to read NTFS without going through all the Windows routines is much safer and the probability of success is much higher.

http://www.programmersheaven.org/zone16/cat920/22441.htm

Read the comments on that page. I use this one, DISKPATCH.

Also, if a particle broke loose inside the drive it may be botching the heads. Try orientating the drive upside down or even better on the side. Tap it lightly. These drives will take quite a hit before the heads will do damage to the surfaces of the disks but don't overdo it. You might drop a particle off the surface if there is one. Be sure and turn the computer off and let the drive stop before turning it.

Don't forget to try the drive on both edges. If the heads got off track a little then the weight of the heads in each orientation, edge wise, might put them back on track enough to work.

Also, you can boot from another hdd and run scandisk on the bad drive using the surface check and it will set aside all the bad sectors and copy the data to good sectors. It will try to read the bad sector many times before it gives up on that particular sector. Don't do this until all else fails. (I know, you can't do that if the system don't recognize the drive, but worth a try if you run the NTFS dos and boot until it catches it.)

Forget about a heat problem. You don't have one. There is something amiss within the confines of the physical drive itself just as you say.

I use a professional data recovery program for problems like this but the darn program sells for $499.00. If the drive is out it probably wouldn't do any good anyway.

If you boot from a floppy and the system recognizes the drive you can sit there for hours trying to copy the data off. With Windows it's a hit or miss problem. Windows will freeze up if anything goes wierd. It's easy to hit the reset button with a floppy and retry to get it recognized.

The plastic cover off the cd was great. I use books for the same reason. No shorts on the PCB. You'd be amazed at the amount of people that don't know you can run a hdd without mounting it inside the case and get very nervous when they watch you do it.

It sounds like the ribbon cable to the inside heads is making momentary contact on one of the pins.

You're actually doing great with your procedures. If the data can be gotton I think you're gonna git it.

Don't forget to post back when you can.

Giles

 

Thank you for all the furhter notes.

I agree with what you said about using a boot program to access NTFS. What is available other than Winternals' NTFS DOS?

I understand what you mean about "high level" languages. This only convolutes matters for me, however, since I have to resolve the hardware problem before *ANY* software program can access the drive.

The problem I'm currently facing, however, is not one of booting the drive. I was trying to access it as a seconday drive on a system with a SEPERATE drive and a working install of NT.

Also, it's not a matter of having it WORK when I boot from a floppy. Keep in mind my BIGGEST problem is a HARDWARE one. I have ONE FAT partition of about 1.5GB. SOMETIMES I've been able to SEE the files on that partition on the rare times when the controller recognized the card. However the data that came off was VERY sporadic; it would sometimes only list 10-20 files, for instance, when doing a DOS "DIR" command before freezing up, sometimes for 5 minutes at a time.

I was unable to use NTFS DOS 4.0 on this drive because the volumes would not mount. Obviously I'm not getting enough data from the drive.

It's *CLEAR* that I can do nothing with the drive, using DOS, boot programs or whatever, on ANY software level, until I address the hardware problem and am able to access the drive for a longer period of time.

You mention:

<< It sounds like the ribbon cable to the inside heads is making momentary contact on one of the pins. >>

Yes, I've wondered about this. I tore apart an older, dead drive to become more familiar with their construction. I'm a little concerned, however, about how to handle this. That ribbon cable is a delicate item with no clear way to replace it without replacing the entire head assembly (I also wonder if that little chip on the heads could be bad). I don't have a 'clean room' nor do I have the training with the drive to ensure I don't damage things MORE. Breaking open the drive is certainly a possibility but I'm not going to rush into it until I REALLY know what I'm doing. I'd rather sit on this drive for a year, learning what I can, and then get my data off than rush into it and ruin forever my chances for any recovery.

Luckily, I have a "twin" to this drive which I probably will just USE until such time as I may need a donor Each one only was $50 after rebates so even if I had to sacrifice both, it's not a deadly investment.

Oh, yes - and as for trying the drive upside down, on the sides and any number of positions, I've tried them without success.

I seriously doubt it's a particle since that would probably cause more "noise" in the drive with the heads encountering it. I don't get NOISE - I just get nothing. The loose contact from the head to the pin sounds MUCH more like what's going on.

P.S. Just curious - what's that $500 software you use?

 

Hi.

Sounds like you're right on top of things.

I think the best you might be able to hope for is to swap the disks themselves into an identical drive with good electronics and heads. That's more than a mild crapshoot but worth a try. I would reserve that for "desperation day ".

The program I use to recover difficult data is Easy Recovery Professional by Ontrack but it assumes the drive itself is working.

http://www.ontrack.com/easyrecoveryprofessional/

However, depending on the value of the data you might be interested in having an expert pull the data off. Ontrack has such a service.

http://www.ontrack.com/datarecovery/labdr.asp

You can request an online service cost from them at the above url. They have a clean room and can swap out the disks. You might be able to ship them both of the drives and thus save some costs. Obviously your data is valuable but you might not swap a new jag for it. Normal turn around time is 3-4 days if requested. You can save a lot by just letting them recover the data during normal business hours on a non-hurry-up basis.

There are a number of services that can recover the data. Just do a search for them.

I think your NTFS dos programs would work ok if the drive was giving reliable signals to the system. Doesn't sound like a particle either.

I think you're right where you would have wound up no matter what path you took to get here. Time to back off and think about it and gather some more info on cost, etc. A very interesting problem and my mind is going a mile a minute. There is still room there to sympathize with your plight tho.

I have no further suggestions to offer. Please let us know how it turns out if someone else doesn't come up with something. Of course you must realize we're all dying to know what the data is, however, politeness doesn't allow us to inqure.

Good luck sir.

Giles

 

Once again, I will intersperse for comments for clarity:


<< Sounds like you're right on top of things. >>

Thanks. However I still need to learn more since this is an unusual case.

I'm amazed I've not gotten more responses from the "drive gurus ". I appreciate yours and other responses, without a doubt. I'm just surprised I haven't gotten more bites. I was hoping to hear the story of a drive that had my symptoms.


<< I think the best you might be able to hope for is to swap the disks themselves into an identical drive with good electronics >>

Indeed, that's my last resort. I would probably wait a considerable time before trying that, given that I believe the motor and heads in the existing drive are fine; there's probably just some component that's gone fritzy. If I *NEVER* could read data, then I would agree the only thing to do would be to swap disks. Who knows what the future will hold for that.

BTW - is there a way to lock out a drive so that it will READ ONLY? I would like to do this if possible.


<< ... depending on the value of the data you might be interested in having an expert pull the data off. Ontrack has such a service. >>

Thanks but when I found out how much these places charge I immediately ruled them out as a course of action - unless I win the lottery in the meantime I found their prices quite staggering.

This data has a personal value to me but no financial value. While I might fall behind in personal backups, if this data was valuable enough to warrant $1000+ per drive, I would have made sure I had a good backup running almost daily...


<< I think your NTFS dos programs would work ok if the drive was giving reliable signals to the system. >>

Exatcly. That's why I say that my concern is a hardware one. If I can solve the hardware issue, I should be able to deal with the files easily enough.



<< Time to back off and think about it and gather some more info on cost, etc. >>

Exaxtly. I put the drives aside for the moment to quit obsessing and enjoy the holidays. From here, I will need more info before I proceed. At least I have a drive twin for this drive in case I need it.


<< I have no further suggestions to offer. ..... Of course you must realize we're all dying to know what the data is, however, politeness doesn't allow us to inqure. >>

LOL...!!!

Actually, I don't mind. Mostly, I'm concerned about some documents I've created (from song lyrics to some speech notes), perhaps most importantly my email archives (since I have a lot of thoughts in there) and some other things like digital video projects I wanted to complete and other things. I would be happy if I could get my email and the documents. The rest is gravy.

I understand you don't have any more suggestions but I appreciate what you did have to offer. With luck, I will eventually hear from someone who's had a similar situation and was able to diagnose it. Who knows.

My many thanks.

Anyone else have any info?