New install - locking up

Hi, someone gave my mum an old pc, complete with Win98SE but it was a bit cranky,
I said i'd wipe it and re-install from fresh for her - which I have done
But the machine suffers from randon lock-ups, it doesn't seem to matter what you are doing, or even if you do nothing. you can turn it on leave it for half an hour and when you return, it's locked up.
I haven't used 98 for a long time and have forgotten a lot of stuff

Can anyone give me some pointers in the best way to fault find what's causing this problem

regards

Chris.

 

Okay, computer problems fall into two general catagories
Software and Hardware.

Software problems are characterized by blue screen of death with an error message which explains the cause if you know how to interpret it.

Hardware falls into two groups too. One is where it gives you the BSOD and error message; the other is where the CPU (Processor) stops working and you get a "lockup" where the graphics card just keeps displaying the last frame it was sent and the mouse and keyboard seem to have no affect (Ctrl+alt+del twice will not reboot it etc).

So it sounds like you have the second hardware issue.
THis is generally a problem with heat or power.
It could be as simple as dust buildup on the heatsink/ fan causing the processor to overheat and lock up. You take a can of compressed air, open the case and blow out all the dust.

But it is more likely to be a power issue.
It could be a failing power supply or it could be a short.
Here is where history would be really helpful.
If this is a recent developement, it is probably a problem with the power supply. A new one will cure it.
If it has always been an issue, it is probably a short.
Often home builders, and even small mom and pop shops do not use enough of the red fiber washers (in fact many major manufacturers rely on probability and good alignment rather than preventative measures) . I recommend one above and one below each ***** which connects the motherboard to the case. Some even fail to remove extra brass standoffs or put nylon Ts in unused domes. The result is that when the board heats up and expands it will short something enough to cause the processor to lock up. Often this is not an issue when the machine is new and things are tight, but over time vibration and heat and cooling cycles loosen things.

It could also be an individual component, but that is more likely to give a bsod and involves removing hardware one peice at a time to troubleshoot.

 

Wow oshwyn5,
That's quite a leap, going from random lockups to power supply replacement. While I agree that this can can very well be bad or not enough ram or a hardware issue such as power supply, not all of us can afford or have the expertise to trouble shoot an issue with such big guns until we've eliminated all the other possibilities. Granted having spare parts on hand and the ability to exchange a possible bad component with a known good one is ideal for some but it may not be so easily done by others.

I can't fault your suggestion, particularly since it was mentioned that this is an older computer but the statements inferring that lockups will bluescreen or burp up an error (inference or assumption)->every time can mislead some.

Lockups, whether software or hardware caused, are not always so kind as to bluescreen or offer an error. This does not happen in many (a lot of) cases. Win98 is infamous for doing this for a whole list of reasons. It was mentioned that this is a new clean install and it has not been clearly established whether Chris has done all his or her update "to-dos ". Bugs abound in all components of win98 from software to hardware driver updates to background running or conflicting components to the total elimination of things that are known not to work well at all with win98.

APM (power management), mouse, fastfind, keyboard, usb issues, lack of updating all components, both software & hardware/microsoft and OEM or manufacturer support, virus software, malware/adware elimination, background running (particularly those apps that phone home or those looking for and monitoring ie connection for update checks) and startup reduction.

If Chris chooses to start with the big gun hardware issues all the better but if he seeks to eliminate all other possible avenues first I would start by eliminating the unnecessary startups (particularly those infamous or known to cause problems...grrr "fastfind "), making sure nothing software related has option settings that have them automatically checking for updates. Virus/malware/adware scan. Suspect APM, mouse and video graphic adapter, virus version and scan options. Reduce win98 bells and whistles and use the most basic display settings/preferences. Check for and install any updates both Microsofts and any OEM support sites. Look for updates, patches or known problems for any software or hardware, you have. Install the latest versions of applications (that are compatible with my computer) such as IE/OE, directx, mediaplayer, etc. Apply time tested tweaks that are known to improve win98 performance (stick to the ones that are rated or considered as "no risk "). Etc etc.... most/all can be found in the Archives.

Chris have you at least done the basic updating of win98 with all available Microsoft updates and IE/OE versions and gone to your computer manufacturer support sites and looked for component updates there? Eliminated your unnecessary startups? Looked for and searched through possible known lockup issuesjust so you can become more familiar with or be more aware of what "symptoms and issues" plus "methods that others have used" are floating around). You can't use what you have forgotten or do not know exists.

http://www.windowsbbs.com/showthread.php?t=43574&highlight=random+lockup

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=win98+"random+lockups"

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=w...n&lr=lang_en&newwindow=1&safe=off&sa=N&tab=wg

Tweaksjust a starter)
http://www.helpwithwindows.com/windows98/

You can get lost in this site for days:
http://www.mdgx.com/

===============
To sum up....
To oshwyn5,
In case I have not made my intentions clear, I, in no way intended to fault or criticize your posted advice. I appreciate any and all of your postings and your selfless desire and the accomplished help you have already given to other members of this board. I was just trying to clearup any misconception or misleading assumptions that some less experienced members may draw from BSOD/error statements and offer an alternate "Attack Plan" for this issue. It may not be the best plan but when pinching pennies is an issue, at least it is a plan worth considering. The upside is all of this would have to be done anyway.

To Chris,
You must excuse the general advice rather than anything specific. Until it can be clearly established that you have done the basics in an effort to eliminate or pin this down, any further monetary $ or specific steps may not be required. You need your updates and you need to stop/reduce startups, you need to look for and stop known power management problems.

Stupid me....
Anywhere where I mentioned fastfind should be corrected to be "findfast" as in msoffices api "findfast ":
http://www.windowsnetworking.com/kb.../UserTips/Customization/GetRidofFindFast.html

http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=199787

 

No problem, I enjoy criticism ; it lets me see what I am missing.
I agree that he has not made clear exactly what he has done and what he has not.
For example, if he boots to safe mode and does what few things he can in safe mode , does the problem still occur?
Has he checked for and installed updated drivers for all hardware? Is he sure he has the hardware correctly identified.


However the line

Makes me suspect that this is an ongoing problem and most likely related to the power supply or heat.

 

oshwyn5

That's silly. Software frequently causes 'lockups', probably more frequently than hardware. Consider the eternal loops in errant programs.

Also, drivers (= software) are the most common cause of BSODs. What information or experience do you have to say such nonsense? The CPU never 'stops working' unless it's fried or the power is off.

Won't comment on the remainder since such egregious errors make it not worth reading, that is, except to say that it's a dirty trick to play on a person with a serious question, to mislead them this way.

 

goddez1

But, like one of my profs used to say, "sometimes it's wrong to be right ", and in this case, that's the problem. oshwyn5 has no more idea what's going on than we do, and I think less. Even if it turns out that the computer will run better with a new power supply, that's only a guess, and the least likely guess until more study is done and all the simple things you've suggested are done.

Yes, if money were no object, pull any idea out of the air or off the ceiling, but then, why not just get a new computer?

 

Okay, I probably should have said
get everest
http://www.snapfiles.com/get/everest.html

Go to computer/ sensor and check the voltages.
If any are off by over 10% you probably need a new power supply.
If any are off by 5% or more, keep a close eye on them and if they fluctuate, you probably need a new power supply.

Does this mean leaving it with nothing but windows running? What about in safe mode?

 

I was just going throught this post quickly and I may well have missed some things. If I did then please excuse me.

It was mentioned about the thing being cranky when it was first recieved.

The problem may very well have nothing to do with win98 itself. Unless it is a driver problem for it. And I would not blame Win98 itself. I would bet heavily on a miss-match of OS and Machine and/or drivers.

Again. Unless I missed it I have seen no mention of what type of machine. Is it a DELL, HP, Compaq or some other OEM machine ? If it is and happens to be old enough it may well be a driver problem. Those machines quite often require speciall drivers.

If that means that you formated you may be out of luck. Expecially if it is an OEM machine and you do not have the Original Disk(s) that came with it.

The guy with maybe more wild ideas.
BillyBob

 

spotta

Please let us know where you stand. Otherwise we're just wasting what little brain power we have left discussing your question in the dark.

Our problem seems to be need of information. Sounds to me like you know what you're doing; wipe if and reinstall windows is the first thing I would think of too. Hope I'm correct to assume you've found all the motherboard and other hardware drivers whose absence could cause the various lockups. If all those things are done, and you've followed Steve R Jones' and goddez1's suggestions, then looking at the parts that can fail on an old computer is in order, and the power supply, and ram are first in line in our experience. As oshwyn5 suggests, watch the voltages; as BillyBob suggests, we'd like to get more facts to work with.

 

Sorry for not getting back sooner.
I have had had the time to have a look at it, i am going to be checking out some of the advice this afternoon and will get back to you all - thanks for all the replies.

If it helps at all - it only seems to lock up when you click on a minimised window on the taskbar to maximise it.

Chris

 

Use everest to get us some info on your video (GPU) card and RAM , processor etc.

That sounds like things locking up when a sudden surge in data and usage of graphics is called for. Launching a screensaver would likewise be demanding on CPU and Video. Could be heat or power.


Can you go to start/ run and type sfc , hit enter
when it finds a missing or damaged system file tell to restore from the windows install cd, or c:\windows\options\cabs if it exists. Any which are "not found" write down to ask about here and choose ignore. They will show up again on next scan.

 

Hi Everyone
i've just read through all the posts and am replying below. hopefully this will provide you with more information.


Screen saver and power management are off.
Removed CPU and heatsink, put new silver thermal paste on and cleaned heatsink GFX is onboard - no fan.
Machine is a compaq - i put a larger hard drive in it, and some more memory.
Hardrive passes manufacturers drive fitness test. memory passes memtest 86 and MS memory test. - i have also tried one stick at a time - in each slot with no difference.
I did a clean install using the original 98 disc - i had already located drivers for all devices, followed by all WindowsUpdate updates. then installed Office 2000 from the original disc and updated that. i then installed AVG Free, Spybot S&d and Ad-Aware SE on it, and also Spyware blaster.
Only AVG Boots with windows - and the machine will stay on for 3 days if left on without locking up.
It seems to lock up only when clicking on a minimised window on the taskbar.
After just spending 10 mins minimising and maximising windows in safe mode - no it doesn't lock up in safe mode.
I am sure I have all the hardware correctly identified.
Everest - I normally use motherboard monitor 5 on mobo's of this age, but it's nice to have a new tool to try, so i'm downloading it now to try.
tried sfc already.

I even went as far as to drag out an old copy of Norton systemworks 2000 and installed crashguard on the off chance that it might intercept the crash and help me find out what program it is, but it doesn't intercept them when they happen

regards

Chris

 

The mention of a new hard drive again makes me suspect power may be an issue.
The fact that it happens in normal mode, not in safe mode makes me think it may be related to an incorrect graphics card driver, or again power (Not everything is running in safe mode, and what is is not using its windows drivers)

I would definitley check the voltage levels, and double check that you have the latest and correct drivers.

 

Just to be picky on behalf of lurkers

Can you go to start/ run and type sfc , hit enter From Pete - this is a 98 system, no?

tried sfc already From Spotta, I assume you got an invalid run command.

Regards - Charles

 

Yep 98 system - start > run ' sfc ' is how you get it to run, it found one file which it replaced, but it didn't stop the locking up.

Chris

 

Hi Spotta,

Learned something new here - I wasn't aware you can use the sfc command in 9X OS's.

Forgot to add that if I go looking for references on this command, I get no mention of 9X, an example:

The sfc.exe command is an external command that is available in the below Microsoft Operating Systems.

Windows 2000
Windows XP

http://www.computerhope.com/sfc.htm

Regards - Charles

 

spotta

As you know, 3rd party drivers aren't loaded in safe mode and the associated hardware is thusly turned off. So that's the place to look for the cause of crashing. There's a troubleshooter accessed from the help system:
Call Help up from the Start Menu, click Contents, click Troubleshooting, and choose Windows 98 Troubleshooters, and then click the topic Hardware Conflict and follow the instructions.
Hope you find something that helps.

 

All voltages are fine apart from the -5v which shows up as +3.55v

I fitted another PSU and it still says the same

any ideas?

regards
Chris

 

Do you get the same problem by using alt-tab to open minimized windows?