1. You are viewing our forum as a guest. For full access please Register. WindowsBBS.com is completely free, paid for by advertisers and donations.

TCP/IP Node type and network neighbourhood

Discussion in 'Networking (Hardware & Software)' started by ReggieB, 2006/06/16.

?

What is your Node Type (only enter Unknown if the IPCONFIG output states "Unknown")

  1. Broadcast

    3 vote(s)
    12.0%
  2. Peer

    2 vote(s)
    8.0%
  3. Mixed

    1 vote(s)
    4.0%
  4. Hybrid

    7 vote(s)
    28.0%
  5. Unknown

    11 vote(s)
    44.0%
  6. Something else

    1 vote(s)
    4.0%
  1. 2006/06/16
    ReggieB

    ReggieB Inactive Alumni Thread Starter

    Joined:
    2004/05/12
    Messages:
    2,786
    Likes Received:
    2
    I think there may be an issue with an XP TCP/IP setting that is causing problems with Network Neighbourhood. It is the Node Type. Node type determines how a computer discovers other computers on the local network. Getting the setting right can make quite a difference to performance when browsing the network in Network Neighbour. Possible node types are:

    B-node: Broadcast - no WINS
    P-node: Peer - WINS only.
    M-node: Mixed - broadcast, then WINS
    H-node: Hybrid - WINS, then broadcast

    Many XP systems appear to be set to "Unknown ".

    Therefore, I am interested to see what your Node Type is set to. To find the node type your computer is set to, enter IPCONFIG /ALL at the command prompt. Node type is listed in the output. Can you please enter your node type in the poll. Also helpful would be a note saying what:
    • The node type
    • The operating system
    • Number of PCs on network
    • How you connect to the internet (router, modem, or proxy server)
    • If you are using DHCP, which device are you using to give out the IP address (server or router)
     
  2. 2006/06/16
    Scott Smith

    Scott Smith Inactive Alumni

    Joined:
    2002/01/12
    Messages:
    1,950
    Likes Received:
    4
    Reggie you may be on to something.

    First one I checked was my desktop.

    Windows IP Configuration

    Host Name . . . . . . . . . . . . : crusher
    Primary Dns Suffix . . . . . . . :
    Node Type . . . . . . . . . . . . : Unknown
    IP Routing Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
    WINS Proxy Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
    DNS Suffix Search List. . . . . . : knology.net

    Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection:

    Connection-specific DNS Suffix . : knology.net
    Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Marvell Yukon 88E8001/8003/8010 PCI
    Gigabit Ethernet Controller
    Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-0E-A6-AB-2D-B4
    Dhcp Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : Yes
    Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes
    IP Address. . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.110
    Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.0
    Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1
    DHCP Server . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1
    DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : 69.1.30.10
    69.1.30.11
    Lease Obtained. . . . . . . . . . : Friday, June 16, 2006 7:34:39 AM
    Lease Expires . . . . . . . . . . : Monday, January 18, 2038 10:14:07 PM
     

  3. to hide this advert.

  4. 2006/06/16
    Scott Smith

    Scott Smith Inactive Alumni

    Joined:
    2002/01/12
    Messages:
    1,950
    Likes Received:
    4
    Screen shot of Advanced TCP/IP settings
     
  5. 2006/06/18
    ReggieB

    ReggieB Inactive Alumni Thread Starter

    Joined:
    2004/05/12
    Messages:
    2,786
    Likes Received:
    2
    I'm at home now, and my Win 2000 system picks up IP from a Netgear router. The Node Type is broadcast, which is what I'd expect (Broadcast was the default setting in NT4 too).

    The Microsoft network way of doing things since Windows 2000 server and active directory, is that name resolution is done via DNS. It is core to both 2000 and 2003 server networks. However, it appears that there are still systems using NetBIOS for name resolution - the obvious app being Network Neighbourhood.

    On business networks (where most XP networking is done and tested) there is a local DNS server. On SOHO (Small office, Home office) networks there is rarely a local DNS server. That means all there is for automatic local name resolution is NetBIOS. And for this to work seamlessly, node type needs to be broadcast, mixed or hybrid.

    Unfortunately, I can't find a way to set the node type other than with a registry hack.
     
  6. 2006/06/18
    Dennis L Lifetime Subscription

    Dennis L Inactive Alumni

    Joined:
    2002/06/07
    Messages:
    2,557
    Likes Received:
    2
    Node type ....................................(XP) = Unknown - (w98) = Broadcast
    Number of devices in Network ........XP, w98, HP2610 networked printer.
    How you connect to the Internet ....Router.
    DHCP Enabled ...............................Yes -- IP issued by router.

    Above network was setup / running Network Neighborhood.
    Network is stable, can ping using IP address and computername.
    DHCP is set to auto ... but ...
    I use the following router features ... "Reserve IP" to forced an assigned IP address to computer NIC based on it's MAC value. This eliminates IP address assignment based on starting order of attached devices.
    IP allocation range is restricted to the 3 consecutive IP addresses in use by above devices.
    With the above router settings, the network works under DHCP active/auto, but I have the management and security luxury of static.
     
  7. 2006/06/19
    ReggieB

    ReggieB Inactive Alumni Thread Starter

    Joined:
    2004/05/12
    Messages:
    2,786
    Likes Received:
    2
    Thanks Dennis
    That's an interesting comment. My experience is that once a system has discovered another PC via NetBIOS, it is fairly good at remembering it, as long as the IP address remains the same. I think the problem will be most apparent when:
    • The network is first created
    • A new PC is added to the network
    • IP addresses change
    • Something causes the NetBIOS name cache to be reset (so that the system has to rediscover the names on the network
    I have a gut feeling that a recent MS update has caused the NetBIOS name cache to be reset, and that is why we got a sudden burst of users complaining that they couldn't see computers in Network Neighbourhood any more.
     
  8. 2006/06/19
    Dennis L Lifetime Subscription

    Dennis L Inactive Alumni

    Joined:
    2002/06/07
    Messages:
    2,557
    Likes Received:
    2
    When all devices on my network are powered off and then powered up, it seems to be a an "odds game" per (previous) IP assignment. No rhyme or reason ... sometimes it would get assigned the same number, sometimes not. Many folks will power-up devices in a certain order to achieve a preferred IP address... but for myself this also was hit or miss. The primary reason I use "Reserve IP" is for my HP network printer ... Print spooler unable to connect to printer. HP creates a static IP/devicename in the Host file during install. If "printer" IP addresses changes at anytime, HP software does not have the ability to update the HOST file, thus causes the error and your printer does not work. To resolve this, I use the router to always assign same IP based on printers MAC and for extra measure have HP software set device address as static to same IP address (printers always asks for same IP, router reserves said IP).
    Hardware question ...
    If a NIC card loses power, will this flush out any IP address memory? This could be caused by two situations. Power grid outages and folks who use a power strip and term power via power strip.

    MEMO
    The above HP URL link is like most long threads. Solutions are varied and well hidden in numerious suggestions. If you use supplied URL thread to resolve your HP printer issue, please read all the posts.
     
    Last edited: 2006/06/19
  9. 2006/06/19
    ReggieB

    ReggieB Inactive Alumni Thread Starter

    Joined:
    2004/05/12
    Messages:
    2,786
    Likes Received:
    2
    DHCP uses a lease system. Most systems define a lease period of a few days. You only have to change IP address if your lease run out. Most of the time your systems will renew the lease before it runs out. So you keep the same IP address. Also, the DHCP will remember which IP addresses were given out to which MAC address device, and endeavour to assign it to the same device.

    However, all this assumes that the DHCP server is always on and therefore can maintain a memory of what has happened. As soon as you start powering off the DHCP server, all this goes to pot.

    I guess that until widespread use of broadband (last couple of years) there weren't that many small networks with routers. Certainly very few home networks had them. Now everyone seems to have them, and only now is that showing that some old network rules of thumb don't work anymore.

    For your printer issues, the simplest thing to do is the use an IP address outside the DHCP range. When DHCP is set up, it is rarely configured to use the whole subnet. Commonly DHCP hands out addresses from 100 to 200, so in this example you can assign static IP addresses in the range 1 to 100, or 201 to 254 without them conflicting the addresses handed out by DHCP.
     
  10. 2006/06/19
    Dennis L Lifetime Subscription

    Dennis L Inactive Alumni

    Joined:
    2002/06/07
    Messages:
    2,557
    Likes Received:
    2
    HP install program auto-created printer IP (and associated Host file) "inside the DHCP range ". Possible user could use "printers firmware accessible from printer panel) " to use an IP "outside the DHCP range ", including "static IP option ". BUT this would have to be done BEFORE install and then hoping HP install process looks to printer and use the options you chose. If not, you will end up with same error, which has haunted many a HP user. Some problems have more than one solution. Using features common to most routers has allowed me to manage my network IP addresses without going inside XP's network tools. Something I would prefer not messing with. :)
     
  11. 2006/06/19
    ReggieB

    ReggieB Inactive Alumni Thread Starter

    Joined:
    2004/05/12
    Messages:
    2,786
    Likes Received:
    2
    Well, after an evening playing with an XP Pro laptop and Ethereal on my home network, I have reached a conclusion:

    I don't think the node type being set to "Unknown" is a problem.

    I have played with the setting by creating a *.reg file with the following setting:
    Code:
    [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\NetBT\Parameters]
     "DhcpNodeType "=dword:00000000
    
    Running that reg file and rebooting, resulted in my laptop being set to "Node Type: Unknown" in IPCONFIG /ALL. Setting the dword to 00000008 set the node back to Hybrid (as it was previously set).

    So I was able to control the registered node type.

    Attached is a screen shot of an Ethereal capture while Node Type was set to "Unknown ". As you can see, even though the Node Type is not set, the system is broadcasting out for NetBIOS name resolution (both at layer 2 {ff ff ff ff ff ff} and at layer 3 {192.168.1.255}) and resolving a NetBIOS names.

    So I think I may have been chasing a Red Herring.
     
  12. 2006/06/19
    ReggieB

    ReggieB Inactive Alumni Thread Starter

    Joined:
    2004/05/12
    Messages:
    2,786
    Likes Received:
    2
    Before I finally give up on this line of investigation there is another thing to check. Is the dword I've been playing with only one of those required to NetBIOS to work properly? My system has had NetBIOS set up via a DHCP setting. I'm not sure that is the case with a fresh XP install that has never had a node type set.

    Scott,
    Attached is a screen shot of my registry showing the NetBIOS over TCP section. Do you have similar settings?
     
  13. 2006/06/19
    Dennis L Lifetime Subscription

    Dennis L Inactive Alumni

    Joined:
    2002/06/07
    Messages:
    2,557
    Likes Received:
    2
    ReggieB

    My Reg file is identical to yours with "one exception ".
    Your file containes DhcpNodeType, mine does not.
     
  14. 2006/06/19
    Scott Smith

    Scott Smith Inactive Alumni

    Joined:
    2002/01/12
    Messages:
    1,950
    Likes Received:
    4
    Heres mine Reggie
     
  15. 2006/06/19
    Scott Smith

    Scott Smith Inactive Alumni

    Joined:
    2002/01/12
    Messages:
    1,950
    Likes Received:
    4
    Dennis,
    This is a little off subject but I never use the HP software except for the driver.
    I set the printer with a static IP (Out of the DHCP scope) and then create new printer, local printer, create port, TCP/IP port, type in static IP, port is created then load printer driver pointing to that port.
     
  16. 2006/06/19
    Scott Smith

    Scott Smith Inactive Alumni

    Joined:
    2002/01/12
    Messages:
    1,950
    Likes Received:
    4
    Reggie I'm not sure when I will get in this situation again but I would like to try forcing the "Enable Netbios over TCP/IP" and see what happens.
     
  17. 2006/06/19
    Scott Smith

    Scott Smith Inactive Alumni

    Joined:
    2002/01/12
    Messages:
    1,950
    Likes Received:
    4
    Well I ticked "Enable netbios over TCP/IP" on this machine.

    Went to a customers laptop on the bench with a diffrent workgroup name.
    Said I did not have permission to brouse this workgroup.
    Turned off the Windows Firewall on the laptop and I was able to brouse the laptops workgroup but that was it.

    Went to explorer and typed \\crusher and Boom! all of my shares showed up on the laptop even though the laptop has a diffrent workgroup name!
     
  18. 2006/06/20
    ReggieB

    ReggieB Inactive Alumni Thread Starter

    Joined:
    2004/05/12
    Messages:
    2,786
    Likes Received:
    2
    Perhaps we just have to come to the conclusion that browsing a peer to peer network via Network Neighbourhood is unreliable. The only times I see browsing the network work well is when there is a server on the network (either with WINS or AD/DNS running), and the client PCs are set up to use it. Otherwise it can be hit or miss whether it works.

    \\computer_name on the other hand can be relied on to work well.

    I thought I saw light at the end of tunnel, but I'm back to my previous thoughts:
    • The success of computer browsing via Network Neighbourhood has very little to do with how well the network is working. All it tells you is how well the Network Neighbourhood application and/or NetBIOS browsing is working.
    • The best way to access a computer via Network Neighbour is to connect to it directly either with \\computer_name or \\IP_address
    • If you regularly but not often, need to connect to a network resource, create a shortcut to it in network neighbourhood (find it via the method above, and then copy a shortcut to it at the root of Network Neighbourhood)
    • If you connect to the same network folder thoughtout the normal working day, map the folder as a local drive on your system (as long as the folder is on the local network - don't map to remote systems).
    • Network Neighbourhood browsing will work well one day and not the next. Don't waste time trying to work out why. Instead get used to working with Network Neighbourhood via \\computer_name and \\IP_address, and feel yourself fortunate if when you want to browse, it does.
    Not the most elegant or even satisfactory conclusions, but one that I think will cause you the least head-aches.
     
  19. 2006/06/30
    mjg1973

    mjg1973 Inactive

    Joined:
    2002/01/18
    Messages:
    125
    Likes Received:
    0
    Guys. I don't see anyone out here talking about HOW the browsing function actually works! Scott, how do you think that one PC knows who "crusher" is? What translates "crusher" to something meaningful (IP). Is there a NetBIOS "table "? Wait, what exactly is NetBIOS? NetBIOS is an interface, not a protocol. It's just a way for the OS to talk to the network in a standard way.

    Network Neighborhood. This is one of those things that Microsoft gave to us that we take for granted and often forget what is going on in the background. It makes the network "friendly "...kinda like we had Macs...only it's a lot more flakey. Everyone remember the Browse Master and Elections? In a domain/AD environment, it's pretty simple...the server will assume that role. But, without a server, how does it all happen? If your machines stay up and running most of the time, it should work fairly well. The Browse Master will do a pretty good job of maintaining a list...if for some reason you have more than, I think, 25 computers, a backup browse master will emerge. BUT, if you are constantly bringing up new machines...especially new-ER machines...then you'll likely have troubles. One of the most common reasons for browsing problems is a laptop...especially wireless. When the machine that has been elected to be the browse master suddenly drops off the network, you WILL have problems. Dropping off the network could be anything from a quick hibernate on a laptop to a blue screen...OR a PC that you've hooked up to work on and disconnect just as fast.

    Read this.

    You could disable the Computer Browser service on all but the one machine that stays up 24X7 in a SOHO network...but if you bring a new machine up...it's election time!

    You can easily see what machine is currently acting as a browse master by running nbtstat -n on each machine. I think you can even try a "nbtstat -A IP_ADDRESS" (the "A" switch is capitalized) for each known IP address if you don't want to go to the other PCs. What you are looking for is a line that reads:

    ..__MSBROWSE__.<01> GROUP Registered

    That tells you that he is the Browse Master.

    What *I* would do would be to share SOMETHING on each computer. Unless you've messed with Windows Firewall, it will open it up. See if they don't start playin' pretty. :)
     
  20. 2006/07/01
    ReggieB

    ReggieB Inactive Alumni Thread Starter

    Joined:
    2004/05/12
    Messages:
    2,786
    Likes Received:
    2
    Thanks mjg1973, you've made some excellent points.

    You are right, small home networks are going to have PCs appearing and disappearing regularly. So lots of master browser elections. Lots of throwing away the data and rebuilding. If people turn their routers off too, you can get lots of IP address swapping too.

    It's hardly surprising that there is a problem.

    I think home users may just have to live with the fact that unless they are willing to leave a PC and their router running all the time, NetBIOS name resolution and applications that rely on it (in particular Network Neighbourhood) can be flaky.

    Is an alternative to use LMHOST and to stop relying on automatic name detection? If so that is an extra network management task for people to get used to. (I'm a little concerned that a number of people who post to this site with network browsing issues also state that LMHOST entries are not helping them).

    For small businesses, I think there is a good case for suggesting they leave a PC running as a master browser. Perhaps also turning off the computer browser service on other PCs as you suggest. And of course leaving the router turned on.

    However, this is also another reason why small businesses should invest in a small server. If you've got five or more users, a server really is a good investment. I would state that nothing compares with a network using a properly configured WINS server when it comes to using Network Nighbourhood. An AD/DNS set up is slower than WINS (in my experience) but still much better than peer to peer.
     
  21. 2006/07/01
    mjg1973

    mjg1973 Inactive

    Joined:
    2002/01/18
    Messages:
    125
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's funny you should mention the LMHOSTS thing...I almost said something about it! The problem with HOSTS/LMHOSTS is that you've got to either do reservations or have everything static, neither of which is much fun!

    I am all for a business of 5 or more to **** it up and setup a server, but the licensing costs are getting sooooo high, more and more folks are just "getting by" without them. OR they are looking at the Linux/FreeBSD alternatives. I can't say as I blame them. I like what Mac is doing on their server end. $500 for 10 clients or $1000 for unlimited. I believe if MS did something like that all the other solutions would fade into the sunset....
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.