Windows 2000 setup can't detect hard disks

You folks are gonna love this. I am trying to understand the cause of a very strange problem I am having; I appreciate your time and patience:

Executive summary:

After I wiped out Windows 2000 and installed Windows XP on my hard disk's primary partition (freshly formatted), I am unable to install Windows 2000 (booting from the Windows CD) anywhere. Windows setup cannot see my hard disks via my disk controller card. Most perplexing, I can't find any way to undo this problem. And yes, I know about and have always used F6 to install the drivers for the disk controller card. It just doesn't have the desired effect anymore.


More detail:

My computer has an unusual setup (created by the store I bought it from), but has been working fine for years. It has two hard drives that both run off a Promise Technology PCI disk controller card, and the two motherboard IDE ports are connected to two CD burners.

My primary hard drive had 4 partitions, with Windows 2000 on the first three partitions and Windows XP on the fourth, using Microsoft multibooting. All instances of both operating systems have been working fine. I have successfully cleared off (re-formatted) partitions many times and installed Windows (both 2000 and XP), and never had a problem.

But recently I did something I apparently have never done before: cleared off the first (primary) partition (which used to have 2000) and installed Windows XP on it; trying to keep up with the times, I guess.

Big mistake. After doing that, I became unable to boot up any of the remaining 2000 os's (the XPs were fine). I got a message complaining about "can't find hal.dll ". What I have read about this problem sounds like 2000 and XP have different needs for some system files in that primary partition, and they are incompatible.

This won't work for me, because I need access to both 2000 and XP, so I need to go back to the way things were. But when I tried to do that (re-format the primary partition and install 2000), I found that now I am unable to do any Windows 2000 installs at all. I get "Windows setup cannot detect any hard drives on your system" (which is what I have always gotten when I forget to use the F6 trick - but I am not forgetting now).

Further experimenting has only left me more confused: I zeroed out the hard drive; I put in a different hard drive. My intention was to re-set the disk the way it came new from the manufacturer by wiping out everything on it (which would presumably include all traces of XP). Since that did not happen, I can only conclude there is something hiding on the thing somewhere that I don't yet know about.

It seems that when XP was installed in the primary partition, it modified or detroyed *something* *somewhere* on that hard drive that makes 2000 setup unable to see the hard drive via the controller card. But where? I have run out of places to look! If I put in another drive, the problem goes away. If I subsequently install XP onto the primary partition of that different hard drive, it acquires this mysterious problem too.

So to re-state my experience:

Windows 2000 setup does not see the hard drives plugged into my Promise Ultra 100 TX2 PCI disk controller card (even though F6 during setup appears to load the controller card drivers properly) IF the primary partition on the primary hard drive has, or has had sometime in the past, XP installed on it.

If the drive has never had XP in the primary partition, Windows 2000 setup works fine. If it has had XP in the primary partition, I get the error, even if that primary partition has been re-formatted .... even if the entire disk has been zeroed!

I am not looking for a way to side-step the problem; I have already done that by temporarily plugging the hard drive into the motherboard IDE socket long enough to do the Windows 2000 install. But that doesn't explain specifically what's causing the problem, and therefore how to fix it. It doesn't say why what's been working fine for years suddenly quit working.

Honest, I am not doing anything differently. The only difference is that Windows XP seems to have pooped on the hard drive somehow. I probably need a source code guru, someone who knows the details of XP and its install process, to tell me: What did XP do that I can't seem to undo, even by zeroing the whole disk out?

Thank you kindly,
Ted

 

If it was my system, heres what I would do:
+Take out that disk controller card. eBay that mofo.
+connect BOTH hard drives to a Ultra ATA 100 cable and connect it to the motherboard Primary IDE Channel
+connect BOTH CD Drives to another IDE cable, and connect it to the Secondary IDE Port on the Motherboard
now, try to install Windows. If you need dual boot capabilities, ask someone else here for more assistance. I dont have any experience with this.
I do, however, believe I know what the problem is with your OS's. When dual booting, you always have to install Windows in chronological order. like in your situation, you need to install 2000 on the 1st partition, and then XP on the second. or, if u wanted to do 95 and 98... 95 on the 1st, 98 on the second.
Hope this helps,
Matt

 

Thanks for your response, Matt.

I am pretty experienced with multibooting (and with the controller card), and I understand why 2K won't boot (the chronological order issue). That's not the head-scratcher here. It's the Windows 2000 can't-see-the-hard-drives problem.

And as I said, I have a workaround (temporarily plugging into the mobo IDE port just to get the Windows 2000 install done). I'm admittedly just being anal. I know someone somewhere in the world has a logical explanation for this seemingly bizarre behavior, and I want to know what it is.

Thanks,
Ted

 

I have emailed Microsoft as a last resort. They guarantee a 24-hour response, and ... of course .... this was Monday, and I haven't heard anything. I probably should not hold my breath.

 

This is just a thought . . . is the Promise an Ultra66 card? If so, Windows 2000 does NOT recognize this card (as per Microsoft). I know you've been using this card with Win2k for some time, but who knows what the shop did to get it running when they originally installed it.

If you have an Ultra100 or 133 card, then I have no idea what is giving you heartburn.

Good luck. Bill

 

You may be running into this problem.

314859 Limited OEM driver support is available with F6 during Windows XP and
http://support.microsoft.com/?id=314859

 

Bill - Thanks so much. Nope, it's an Ultra 100. I have done all sorts of installs and changing things around, and never had any trouble with the card until XP came along, and then only when I installed XP in the primary partition. <shrug> Who knows? But I appreciate the thought.

 

Ben -
Wow, thanks a million! I have been beating my head against this for 3 weeks, and this is absolutely the first and only explanation I have seen that even begins to make some sense and addresses the real problem.

Sounds like it is saying that I can only use F6 to install a driver that "does not match a driver that is included with Windows. If you use a ... driver [that] has the same name or Plug and Play Identifier as a driver that is included with Windows, the Setup program *ignores* the new OEM driver [which was selected to be installed via F6] ... ". It seems likely that's what's happening.

(A humble aside: a message saying "Windows 2000 setup is ignoring the driver you thought you just installed" would have been nice.)

I did not need to use F6 when installing XP, which I presumed was because the XP CD contains an appropriate driver for the card, whereas the Windows 2000 CD does not.

Somehow, once I installed XP in the primary partition, with its driver included, that driver must have been "remembered" somewhere, so that when I tried to re-install 2K, the above "match so ignore" scenario happened.

But my question still is ... where was it "remembered "? I had this problem even when I zeroed out the entire hard drive, so Windows 2000 setup couldn't be obtaining any (conflicting) driver information (or any other information) from my hard drive .... could it?

Where else would it be? Firmware on the controller card itself? <shrug>

And maybe I should ask, what exactly does "included with Windows" mean? It means it's on the CD, right? But it's *not* on my Windows 2000 install cd. I never used to have this problem before I installed XP on the primary partition, and the Windows install CD certainly hasn't changed.

Now, about a fix ......

It says "If you require an OEM driver ..... that .... is not detected during setup [which I do], you must replace the Windows driver for the controller with the new OEM driver. You can find the Windows driver for the controller on one of the six Windows Setup boot disks or in the temporary installation folder ($WIN_NT$.~BT). "

Where/how would I replace this driver? All I have is a CD (which I can't modify) and a blank hard drive. How would I get the setup process to stop in the middle and wait so I can get at the temporary installation folder?

and .....

"This replacement allows Windows to use the updated OEM driver during text-mode setup, but you must copy the same updated OEM driver to the System32\Drivers folder of the final Windows installation before the installation continues into graphics-mode setup. "

And how would I get setup to stop in the middle and wait while I do that?

One last question; since you work for Microsoft, you might be able to help me with this: As a last resort, I went to the Microsoft support website and paid $35 to send in my question via email. I was promised 24-hour response, but this was 5 days ago and I have heard nothing, not even a "please wait - we are looking into it" or "we have no idea ".

The confirmation number of my request is:
SRZ050207001759

Can you put me in touch with someone who can help, or get my money back?

Thanks so much,
Ted
TakeTwo@columbus.rr.com

 

i saw this. too much to answer right now, work to do, ill try to address this post better later-- short answer is you need to build a 'flat' or 'slipstream'. Format the disk, copy the CD to the drive, monkey with the bits, burn a new cd from the flat, or install right off that flat.

 

lol, I know the feeling, a lot of us have that problem. No worries, whatever you can do .. whenever .. will be greatly appreciated. And slipstreaming sounds very cool .....

Ted

 

We are having a theoretical discussion at this point, since you discovered on your own the easiest way to work around it. Correct? Trying to work out the details of fixing this specific scenario is going to be too much work to do in a post.

On the windows 2000 CD, there is a \bootdisk directory, that contains cdboot1.img-cdboot4.img and the tools to make the floppys. (theres a Kb to download the same for XP). Once you have the floppys made, you can go in there hacking away to get the drivers in.

Or, you can slipstream in the drivers, by hacking the infs to treat your driver as you wish it.

Where/how would I replace this driver? All I have is a CD (which I can't modify) and a blank hard drive. How would I get the setup process to stop in the middle and wait so I can get at the temporary installation folder?
this is tricky, easier to just hack it in as above. usually involves some sort of parrellel install, fancy boot disk, installing on fat32, etc..

But my question still is ... where was it "remembered "?
I dont know. If you TRUELY zero'd the drive, that should have reset the scenario. Are you sure the utility you are using whacks the mbr? This may be the controller involved in the mix here, some hardware ID caching. I dont know, im not familiar with that hardware. I'd have to setup and debug the scenario to answer the question of why its not working in this order of operations.

I sent you a PM in response to your question about your case. Short answer, i see an email that went to your taketwo@ address on Feb 8. I'm not sure why you didnt receive it, check your 'junk mail' or spam filter maybe?

 

I wouldn't call it theoretical. There are two ways to do something like this:

1. Guess and jerry-rig a workaround with the digital equivalent of scotch tape and baling wire, or
2. Figure out the real cause of the problem and fix it right.

I am admittedly being anal, but that's a result of 20+ years as a programmer, and having always been trained to opt for solution number 2. It usually makes things easier in the long run.

Yes, I got my computer going again for the moment with quick-and-dirty solution number 1. But long-term I don't want to have to open up the box and rewire things, or buy a new hard drive, every time I do a W2K install.

I am having a hard time accepting that XP did something to the hard drive that cannot be easily undone. There must be someone somewhere who knows the internals well enough to know what's causing the problem.

Besides, the fact that this scenario doesn't make sense means there must be something fundamental about Windows and hard drives that I don't understand, some piece I am missing. I would like to remedy that.

Actually I already have a set of W2K floppies. Maybe I will try to implement that KB article. My preference would be to still be able to install from a CD.

I agree.

Yes. It came straight from the manufacturer (Western Digital). I verified with a hex dump of the raw sectors before and after with Norton Diskedit. But I would think that even just a re-formatting of the partition should have reset the scenario.

[QUOTE='BenMcDonald[MS]I sent you a PM in response to your question about your case. Short answer, i see an email that went to your taketwo@ address on Feb 8. I'm not sure why you didnt receive it, check your 'junk mail' or spam filter maybe?[/QUOTE]I check that email carefully and often, and I don't remember seeing it. I don't have a junk or spam filter. I suppose it's conceivable that I deleted it by mistake. Could you please re-send it?

Thanks,
Ted

 

I verified with a hex dump of the raw sectors before and after with Norton Diskedit.
This is a good step. You walked the MBR and the active partition and ensured that it was all 00000000. Hmm

Thats interesting, because that pretty much eliminates the hard drive from the equation.
My theory on this is that the combination of the controller, and the driver set is somehow causing a problem. Have you checked to make sure you are running the latest BIOS for the promise card and your motherboard? The only thing left to consider is that the card is tattooing the drive with some signature in a strange place, or caching it in NVRAM, and is remembering something.

After a cold boot, does this drive show up in the bios output (not the motherboard bios, but the screen spew the promise card makes)

this scenario doesn't make sense means there must be something fundamental about Windows and hard drives that I don't understand
Its not that complecated. Windows queries the PNP IDs of the controllers, based on a list it has from thos INFs. If it gets a match, it queries the device and askes it if it has any storage devices. Your scenario is that it either isnt matching the pnpid with your card, or the card is saying it doesnt have a valid drive.

Ill resend that email on monday, and contact instructions for pursuing a refund.

 

My thought exactly.

One would think .... except that if I put in a different hard drive (that hasn't seen XP), the problem goes away <Twilight Zone music>.

I need to learn more about exactly what a BIOS is, and how the CPU has one, but the controller also somehow has its own. The only thing I know is that I haven't change any BIOSes since I bought the computer. So no, neither BIOS is the latest. But it worked before.

That is *exactly* what I've been saying .... unless there is some big piece of the puzzle of which I am totally ignorant.

Yes.

I need to learn more about what pnp is and how it works, I guess.

..... or the driver I am installing with F6 is being ignored (as described in the KB you posted originally, because it thinks it has one already). If Windows setup doesn't make friends with that driver, it can't see the hard disks.

Back in the days when everything was working as expected, I would boot from the W2K CD and hit F6 to install the driver. If I forgot the F6, Windows would complain that it could not detect any hard drives on my machine (same error message).

Got it, thanks.

 

Update, FYI: I was hoping I would be able to nail someone down at Microsoft on this live on the phone. But when I called the other day, I got transferred around and wound up wth someone who said that to get tech support, I would have to pay $245, not $35 !! (apparently because the W2K is OEM, not retail.) And she was no help about requesting a refund of my $35, either. She said since I had submitted the help request online, I would have to request the refund online too. But there is no way to do anything online without paying.

I might spend $35 just to satisfy my curiosity, but my wife's been out of work for awhile and finances are tight, so $245 is a little rich for my blood. Anyway, I don't have a hgh level of confidence that I would get to speak to the right people who know enough about the internals to actually answer the question.

I called the original number back and did manage to get a customer service rep to credit my account the $35 ... we shall see.

2K and XP on my computer are both working fine. And I know that anytime I do a W2K install in the future, I will just have to either:

1. Substitute another hard drive, or
2. Temporarily connect the drive to the motherboard port for the install.

I guess I will not die if I have to do that. It just violates my perception that a good programmer should understand *everything* about what is going on, right down to the nitty-gritty.

Thanks again for your time and efforts, putting up wth this mess.

Ted

 

Just in case anybody's interested .... I just checked my bank online, and Microsoft did actually credit me the $35! I am quite surprised, to be honest.

So the mystery remains unsolved, but I have let it go (more or less), and my life goes on ..... Thanks again.

 

Well, I have been trying different things people have suggested, such as in this thread:

http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?t=36004


I am learning a lot, but the behavior remains unexplained.

Again, nothing else seems to have any trouble seeing the HDDs connected to that Promise card ...except for Windows 2000 setup. Not a normally-running Windows 2000 or XP, not Windows XP setup, not booting to a DOS floppy, not booting to a Partition Magic floppy, not booting to a Norton SystemWorks emergency floppy, nothing .... very bizarre .....

 

***************************

B I N G O ! ! ! ! ! !

****************************

Problem solved !!

I *knew* this had a simple solution. I *knew* I just needed to learn more. We were halfway there, but we were missing one piece of the puzzle.

Details when I get time. Thanks so much for joining me in wrestling with this.

Ted

 

Only Windows 2000 setup had any trouble seeing the HDDs connected to that Promise card. Everything was fine in every other scenario: normally-operating Windows, Windows XP setup, etc.).

And what I was doing *used* to work ... for years; I had not changed any hardware.

So I knew it wasn't a hardware problem; there is nothing wrong with the card, cable, drivers, or the hard drive. I knew it had to be software, specifically something about the installation of the drivers for that card, and specifically during Windows setup only.

There were two crucial pieces of information: the first came from a Microsoft guy I ran into on one of the forums. He pointed me to a Knowledge Base article:

http://support.microsoft.com/?id=314859

It talks about XP, but apparently the same is true with 2K:

If you use F6 to attempt to install a driver that matches (has the same Plug and Play Identifier as) one that Windows already has, the Setup program IGNORES the driver you are trying to install. And no message is displayed telling you it did that (grrr).

So Windows setup, for some reason, (mistakenly) thinks it already has an appropriate driver for that controller card.

I blamed XP because the problem arose when I installed XP.

The F6 trick was not needed during XP installation, apparently because the XP CD contains a driver for the card, whereas the Windows 2000 CD does not.

When I installed XP, that new driver must have been "remembered" somewhere, so that when I tried to do the F6 thing during re-install of 2K, the above "ignore" scenario happened.

But ..... where is it "remembered "? The answer to that question is the other crucial piece of information.

When I changed HDDs, the problem went away. This made me suspect that the place where the driver was "remembered" was on the HDD, as crazy as that sounds. This makes no sense, because I used drives that had been zeroed out. Besides, at that point in the install, the HDD hasn't even been accessed yet. But I had no better ideas. I just kept asking around, because I knew there were some facts I was missing.

Last week I ran across a very good technical info website by a guy named Chris Quirke. I tracked down his email address and asked him the above question, and he immediately came forth with the magic acronym:

E S C D !!!!

(Extended System Configuration Data).

Plug and Play configures the hardware in the machine (assigns IRQs, DMA channels, I/O ports, etc.), and saves that configuration in the ESCD, which is a file in non-volatile RAM in the system BIOS. On subsequent boots, as long as the hardware doesn't change, the system just reads that file and doesn't have to repeat the assignment process.

Apparently when XP was installed, the Promise card's ESCD info was updated to point to XP's new driver. Then when I wiped out XP (and presumably the driver with it), that left the ESCD pointing to la-la land.

So Chris just said to go into the BIOS setup and clear out the ESCD, which forced Plug and Play to repeat its assignment process. Problem went away, end of story.

I think I even figured out why it appeared that the problem was hard-drive-specific. The first time I switched the hard drive, the one I put in was slightly smaller than the one I took out. Perhaps the different disk geometry caused the ESCD to refresh, making the problem go away for the moment. But then I repeated the sequence of steps (introducing XP) on that drive, which reproduced the problem, and then every disk I put in since then has been just like one of those two previous ones.)

Thanks again for all your time and attention,
Ted

 

It was a pretty frustrating 3 months. Maybe I'm just old-school, but compared to what I've been doing for 22 years, this is not rocket science. I am admittedly anal; I could not accept that something had been done that couldn't be easily undone; there had to be something fundamental that I didn't yet understand. There are two ways to solve a computer problem:

1. Guess and jerry-rig a workaround with the digital equivalent of scotch tape and baling wire, or
2. Figure out the real cause of the problem and fix it right.

My training is that option 2 is the responsible choice. My cardinal rule is "don't guess, because there are too many possible wrong answers ".

A lot of people argued it wasn't worth the effort, but look how much I learned .... which should better equip me to solve the next problem. There is no substitute in this business for knowledge.

Ok, I'll get off my soap box now. Thanks for your patience.