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Resolved Seeking suggestions for fast components for new computer

Discussion in 'PC Hardware' started by Barry, 2014/10/26.

  1. 2014/10/26
    Barry

    Barry Geek Member Thread Starter

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    My son is an aerospace engineer, and he's looking to build a new PC from scratch within the next few months. His present work station isn't fast enough. It's fine for CAD, but not for Maya and his engineering 3D rendering programs. He is willing to spend about $2,000 for the components, and we'll build it together. Here is our starting point, but we're open to comments and suggestions.

    CPU: Intel Core i7-5930K 3.5GHz 6-Core Processor
    CPU Cooler: Thermaltake Water 3.0 Extreme 99.0 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler
    Motherboard: ASRock X99 Extreme3 ATX LGA2011-3 Motherboard
    Memory: Crucial 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR4-2133 Memory
    Storage 1: Crucial MX100 256GB 2.5" Solid State Drive
    Storage 2: Seagate Barracuda 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive
    Video Card 1: EVGA GeForce GTX 970 4GB Video Card (2-Way SLI)
    Video Card 2: EVGA GeForce GTX 970 4GB Video Card (2-Way SLI)
    Power Supply: Antec HCG M 850W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply
    Operating System: Microsoft Windows 8.1 - 64-bit (OEM) (64-bit)
    Monitor: BenQ XL2411Z ‑ 24" LED‑backlit LCD monitor
     
  2. 2014/10/27
    Evan Omo

    Evan Omo Computer Support Technician Staff

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    Hi Barry. Everything with that build looks good. I would personally go with a Seasonic or Corsair PSU over the Antec one but that's just my opinion.
     

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  4. 2014/10/27
    PeteC

    PeteC SuperGeek Staff

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    A 1 TB hard drive seems a bit miserly by today's standards and your son's work.

    I would suggest 2 x 2 TB drives, one for data, one for internal backup plus, of course, the SSD for the OS.
     
  5. 2014/10/27
    Barry

    Barry Geek Member Thread Starter

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    Thank you for the feedback. We'll look into those suggestions, along with any other suggestions others may have.

    Any recommendations for the 2TB drives?
     
  6. 2014/10/27
    PeteC

    PeteC SuperGeek Staff

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  7. 2014/10/27
    Barry

    Barry Geek Member Thread Starter

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    What about the Seagate Barracuda 7200.14 2TB ST2000DM001?
     
  8. 2014/10/27
    Bill

    Bill SuperGeek WindowsBBS Team Member

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    I have several comments/concerns:
    1. Do understand IF that Intel CPU comes packaged with an Intel supplied "thermal solution" (heatsink fan assembly), you void the 3-year warranty using any aftermarket cooler!

    This is not a problem because contrary to what many may tell you, the OEM coolers supplied by Intel and AMD are excellent coolers - fully capable of keeping the CPUs in their charge adequately cooled, even with mild to moderate overclocking! Remember, it is the case's responsibility to provide an adequate supply of cool air flowing through the case. The CPU fan need only toss the CPU's heat up into that air flow.

    Also, note with alternative cooling solutions, often overlooked is the cooling requirements of the heat sensitive and heat generating devices surrounding the CPU socket that normally would get some cooling from the turbulence expected from the OEM cooler. In some cases (especially with marginal case cooling), this can result in heat related problems in the chipset and voltage regulation circuits.

    While keeping the CPU adequately cooled is absolutely essential, cooler does not necessarily mean better. A CPU running at 55°C (even warmer with some CPUs) all day long can be expected to perform just as well, be just as stable, and as long-lived as a CPU running at 35°C or even 25°C all day long.

    For these reasons, I am not a fan (no pun intended) of the use of aftermarket coolers. They really are just a fad - unless you are an extreme gamer/overclocking enthusiast. And you can see by the link in my signature I have some experience with hardware and by the last line in my sig that I take heat seriously!

    If the warranty is NOT a concern, then no problem - but this is information EVERY self-builder should know BEFORE they void their warranty, and so they can make an informed decision. Do note many CPUs are sold as "OEM" CPUs and don't come with coolers, and are cheaper. Then you must use your own cooler but note the CPU warranties for these CPUs are for just 1 year, not 3.

    2. And speaking of cases, I don't see one listed. I like Antec cases because they tend to be very sturdy, "true" (exactly 90.0° corners), and offer lots of large (120mm or larger) fan support. Many have removable, washable air filters (a must in my book). I am not a fan of fancy facades or flashy lights in a case because they do nothing for performance and can be distracting - but other wise, the Antec Three Hundred is an excellent and affordable solution.

    3. I also don't see a DVD/BR drive. You will need one to install Windows.

    4. That Antec PSU is an excellent supply that has received excellent reviews.

    5. My biggest concern centers around the following:
    The keywords/phrases I see there are "engineer ", "workstation" and "engineering 3D rendering programs" and they make me worry about your choice of graphics card(s). It is critical to understand that there are gaming graphics cards, and there are professional workstation graphics cards. While gaming cards can perform workstation tasks, and most workstation cards can game, neither is optimal for the other's task.

    If your son is serious about building a "professional" workstation, then I would urge "investing" in a professional workstation graphics card. Note a good "workstation" graphics card can make the prices of those GeForce GTX 970 cards look like chump-change, as seen here (and note, that's after $1000 discount!). At least shipping is only $3 ;). That said, there are many less expensive cards that the budget for two of those GTX 970s could go towards.
     
    Last edited: 2014/10/27
    Bill,
    #7
  9. 2014/10/27
    MrBill

    MrBill SuperGeek WindowsBBS Team Member

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    And in the next few months all this will be obsolete... Best to ask in my opinion when you are ready to do it today.
     
  10. 2014/10/27
    Bill

    Bill SuperGeek WindowsBBS Team Member

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    Don't know how I missed that but, for sure, MrBill is right. You can certainly start doing some homework now, but it is best not to start selecting components until you are ready to buy all at once. This ensures you get the latest revisions and industry standards.

    As for actually purchasing, building the budget to buy all at once when ready, instead of buying piecemeal month by month ensures warranties don't expire while the product is waiting on your shelf for the rest of the components to be purchased.
     
    Bill,
    #9
  11. 2014/10/28
    Barry

    Barry Geek Member Thread Starter

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    Thank you for all the feedback. He is ready to build it now but was waiting to see if anyone knew of anything special coming out shortly or if sales can be expected. Unless he can find better components or better prices, he's ready to do this now.

    He had a workstation and doesn't want that again (paying more for slower speeds).

    He is still leaning toward water cooling, as he plans to overclock the CPU, so do your best to point out the flaws in his thought process.

    I've seen negative comments about the Antec Three Hundred (only 2.0 USB and no easy way to hide the cables). These issues have been addressed by the Antec Three Hundred Two, though it is unclear whether the filters are the same as the Three Hundred. http://www.amazon.com/Antec-Three-Hundred-Two-Gaming/dp/B006TVQTHW/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1414434392&sr=1-1&keywords=Antec+Three+Hundred+Two

    Do you feel he would see significant difference if he upgraded from the Crucial MX100 (409MB/sec) to the M550 (487MB/sec)? http://ssd.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Crucial-MX100-256GB-vs-Crucial-M550-256GB/2317vs2000 He can upgrade for $30.

    Could you also help us compare these two CPUs ( i7-4790K and i7-5930K)?http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i7-5930K-vs-Intel-Core-i7-4790K/2578vs2384

    Thanks for the help.

    By the way, he plans to just move his DVD drive from his present computer to the new one, and he rarely uses it, so doesn't plan on buying a new one, yet.
     
    Last edited: 2014/10/28
  12. 2014/10/28
    Bill

    Bill SuperGeek WindowsBBS Team Member

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    Then he is building a play toy - not a serious computer. I just hope this is not the same computer he plans to use for school, work, personal banking/business, etc. My advice, if his plan remains to build a play toy is to have two computers. This new one for entertainment, and his old one for real computing tasks.

    Frankly, these days I see no reason to overclock, except for bragging rights to other newbies. It should be noted engineers do NOT design in overclocking. Overclocking is just a marketing scheme. Engineers design to specs, or the capabilities of the materials - then hand the product over to marketing weenies. Any overhead provided by the engineers is there as standard engineering design practices, not to exploit, but as a safety buffer.

    And I don't see the challenge to overclock today. It has been pretty much automated by motherboard makers. In my day, to overclock, you had to study the motherboard layout and actually solder jumpers across traces to change voltage and timings. Today, a couple mouse clicks and its done. What's the challenge?

    If I want more power, I buy it! I do not abuse my hardware to get it. It should be noted overclocking does not just stress the CPU, but all the supporting HW too. This abuse increases heat at various point along the way, not just the CPU and as such MUST be addressed - which alternative cooling solutions typically don't! :( As I said before, OEM cooling solutions are very effective at providing adequate cooling even with mild to moderate overclocking - in a properly configured case!

    As a computer technician, poor overclocking implementation and lack of heat management have been good for business. Water cooling alternatives have been particularly good - but profiting off other's mistakes is not the reason I help folks with their hardware issues. I want folks to have a safe and enjoyable computing experience.

    The problem with "novelties" like water cooling, is their "novelty" wears off over time - exactly when regular inspections and preventative maintenance routines need to increase, not decrease. Over time, hoses stiffen and crack, fittings come loose and coolant leaks - never good to have loose liquids inside electronics. I have even seen really nasty mold get inside neglected water systems. :eek:
    *****

    My mistake about the case - I was not paying attention as I knew about the 300 TWO, but linked to the wrong one. Sorry about that. That said, the front USB ports are typically not used for much but an occasional flash drive. USB 3.0 support will still be provided by the motherboard out back.

    As for the two CPUs, the comparison conclusions seem to say it all to me. The 4790K would be my choice. 6-Core CPUs may offer an advantage with programs that can utilize all 6 cores, but most don't.

    As for the SSDs, it is highly unlikely any performance advantage one offers over the other will be noticed. They are both speeding bullets compared to even the fastest hard drive. And unless going into a busy file server, it is important to note that most Windows applications, including games, are NOT heavily disk intensive. And even if they are, with gobs of RAM, and 16Gb is "gobs ", any immediate data will be preloaded into RAM. And if the page file is left for Windows to manage (as it should be!!!!) and left on the SSD (also as it should be) bottlenecking from drive access will not be an issue.

    That said, because the M550 uses newer SSD technologies, and the price difference is not very much, I would go for the M550.
     
  13. 2014/10/28
    Barry

    Barry Geek Member Thread Starter

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    Thank you for your input. Everything you said makes sense to me. I'll have to run it by my son when he gets off work tonight.

    I do have one more question. The Seagate ST2000DX001 Desktop SSHD 2TB seems to be most closely matched in performance and cost/TB to the Seagate ST1000DM003 Barracuda 7200.14 1TB. http://hdd.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Seagate-Desktop-SSHD-2TB-vs-Seagate-Barracuda-720014-1TB/1783vs1849 Any comments about these two drives, other than the 2TB has twice the capacity? The 8GB of flash memory in the 2T one may be an advantage when using smaller amounts of data. He doesn't feel he'll be filling a 1T drive so is more interested in speed than capacity.
     
  14. 2014/10/28
    Bill

    Bill SuperGeek WindowsBBS Team Member

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    Again, much depends on the program, not to mention what is stored on the drive. On my systems, I install the OS and all my program files on the fast SSD. I only save my personal data on the slow HD. I want my programs to "pop" open so I put them on the SSD. Data files tend to be very small so load quickly regardless (compared to programs which may consist of many large files). So having to wait a couple extra milliseconds (not exaggerating) for my Word document to open is not a bother.

    That said, I do like hybrid drives, but I don't think their extra expense serves any purpose when an SSD is used for the OS and program files. If building a new computer without an SSD, then a hybrid drive is a good compromise.
     
  15. 2014/10/29
    Barry

    Barry Geek Member Thread Starter

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    Here is an update. My son informed me that most of the researchers he has dealt with overclock their computers, as they need to get the most speed from their limited resources. Yes, they could spend more to get faster equipment, but the money flow isn't always there. He will be overclocking his computer, but will keep it stable, not pushing to extremes. Some of the programs he writes can take days to run all the data, so saving time is important to him. Someday he'll be able to afford to buy the speed right out of the box, but he's not at that stage in his life, yet. Even the super computers he's used at universities take a lot of time to run his programs, and he'll never buy a super computer.

    Here are some examples of the programs he uses:
    3D Rendering/Sculpting (Maya and Zbrush)
    Digital Painting (Photoshop)
    CAD/Labview/Matlab
    CFD Simulations (Mostly FLUENT)
    Programming (C++, Python, Java)
    Occasional modern gaming
    Music composition and synthesis (FL Studio)
    Moderate document creation/internet usage

    Maybe people who use these programs can relate to his challenges and may have suggestions to add. Any input is appreciated, as we can always learn from the perspectives of others. He's still wavering as to whether to go with the newer i7-5930K or the faster i7-4790, as he needs to think long term rather than short term.
     
  16. 2014/10/29
    SpywareDr

    SpywareDr SuperGeek WindowsBBS Team Member

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  17. 2014/10/29
    Bill

    Bill SuperGeek WindowsBBS Team Member

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    They are rationalizing! Overclocking the CPU rarely yields more than 5% gains in benchmarking programs - not in visible gains (except from the placebo effect). Overclocking the GPU can yield a bit more FPS (frames per second) with "animated" games, but research data crunching??? Nah!!! Make no mistake, Dad! He's building a gaming rig! ;)

    But it seems his mind is made up, and it is not my money so who am I to say?

    As far as the CPU, if me, I would buy the cheaper and increase my RAM to 4 x 8Gb. And I would run with that, without overclocking.
     
    Last edited: 2014/10/29
  18. 2014/10/29
    Barry

    Barry Geek Member Thread Starter

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    Nice and easy, Doc, but it limits options and sent him $1735 over budget. I guess we're back to picking it part by part. When I eliminated everything possible to eliminate, just leaving the case and any other irremovable item, it was still $500 over budget. Remember, the key here is to have the fastest, most stable computer within the $2,000 budget.
     
  19. 2014/10/29
    Barry

    Barry Geek Member Thread Starter

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    Bill, I've seen him in action. He's not running games... he's writing and running programs, designing and taking out patents. I rarely see him playing a game. He doesn't plan on overclocking his GPU, just his CPU, as that is what will give him what he is seeking. Whatever gain he does get is more than he can afford to purchase, so something is better than nothing. It is challenging to keep this unit under $2,000. The money he'd save by getting the cheaper CPU won't cover the increase in cost for the increased RAM.
     
  20. 2014/10/29
    Bill

    Bill SuperGeek WindowsBBS Team Member

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    lol!

    Well, with 5 kids and 8 grandkids myself, I have to say that what happens when I am around is often not what happens when I am not!
    If this really is about crunching research data, and not watching fancy graphics, then I would MUCH rather have more RAM and a slower CPU than a faster CPU and less RAM. With less RAM, the CPU will be forced to swap data into and out of the page file located on the disk drive more often. And that I/O (input/output) is a narrow bottleneck compared to data being swapped into and out of RAM at full and wide bus speeds.

    And with a limited budget, if crunching research data were my priority, I would MUCH RATHER have more RAM and a faster CPU than two monster graphics cards that will be sitting idle most of the time!

    To be sure, I am all for great graphics capability, but "two" monster gaming cards, besides busting the budget (on their own, but in increased PSU requirements too), are more than anyone (besides gamers) need.

    NO DOUBT, where he's blowing this budget is with those two high-end gaming graphics cards. If you research the system requirements for the programs you listed in post #14, you don't see dual cards in SLI mode listed anywhere. You typically see a workstation card, or a single computing (regular) card.

    Note the system requirements for FLUENT. It is suggesting monster CPUs and 12-24Gb of RAM, but just a tiny 512Mb graphics card. Why? Because the crunching is done by the CPU in RAM, not on the monitor!

    Zbrush requirements are hardly worth noting.

    Photoshop says 512Mb of video RAM is all you need. Yes, that is "minimum" but your son wants to use two 4Gb video cards. 1 card alone has 8 times above the minimum recommended graphics RAM.

    FL Studio does not even mention graphics - it's audio!

    Bottom line is this - the graphics cards are displaying the results of the research data that was crunched (processed). You do not need two monster graphics cards to display results!

    IF he were designing a new skyscraper, or a new nuclear powered aircraft carrier with a CAD program and he needed to rotate a super-high resolution image of a see-through view of the entire ship, then good graphics would be "nice to have ". But that is only to "view" what the CPU has crunched.

    If you dump one of those monster graphics cards, the budget will easily be able to take care of the faster CPU and more RAM.

    If he insists on the two graphics cards, then he's building a gaming rig, Dad! ;) I am not saying there is anything wrong with that. And certainly aerospace engineers need and have earned the right to some nice toys (assuming he's not dealing crack or is a wannabe terrorist in his off-time). I am just saying, call it what it is. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...!
     
  21. 2014/10/29
    Barry

    Barry Geek Member Thread Starter

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    I know my son better than you do. Don't assume he is like your kids and grandkids. You may know computers better than us, but nearing retirement with my doctorate in psychology, I feel I'm better qualified to judge people than you probably are. He is well-respected in his field and has made a significant name for himself in the industry. If he says he wants two GPUs, I respect that. He is an artist, in addition to doing top-secret research, so it is his call. It is his computer, and he can determine his priorities, even if they make no sense to you.

    My son and I both agree with the value of RAM, but he is still researching to determine whether the new technology in the newer components will be in his best interest in the future. He wants to know what the new technology offers that isn't available in the older technology. Is it comparing buying this year's Ford Fairlane over last year's Tesla, or is there truly something special about this year's offerings? He doesn't rush into impulsive decisions, just because one person says something. He'll find out the facts and then decide.
     

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