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Old 4th June 2003   #1
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WinXP networking with Win98


Ok folks, here comes the fun stuff...

I recently upgraded one machine to XP, took the remains of the old and put together another machine where I installed Win98.

SO... I set up both so that I can connect to the internet IF I unplug ONE machine and plug the other into the DSL modem. BOTH can connect to the net when they are connected to the modem at their respective times.

NOW, until I can get a hub to have both PCs connected to each other AND the internet DSL modem (of which I'm not exactly sure how that works as yet), right now I want to be able to have two cables that I detach and connect .. i.e. when I want to LAN between the PCs I connect one cable ELSE I connect either PC to my DSL modem which goes to the internet.

I used to have this working with NT4 and Win98, but now with WinXP, something is amiss. When I boot the Win98 machine I can see the drives that I have shared with a 'specific' workgroup, "gstryder". When I click on network neighbourhood, I see the workgroup (gstryder) and the shared drives appear. I also see the computer name 'mike' which allows me to get to the same shared drives. THIS is on the Win98 machine.
I CANNOT see the WinXP machine.

When I go onto the WinXP machine, clicking on "My network places" shows the WInXP drives I've shared, but not the Win98 shared drives. I can get to all the shared drives on the XP machine but it seems to take a while for XP to resolve them.

In any case, the cables work (they can connect to the internet) BUT I cannot get the two machines to recognize each other when connected. SO, my take is that I still have to set/configure something on the XP machine so that the two can get to each other, but what?

What am I missing? Please let me know what I can forward if any more info is required. I seem to remember having to set up a special ID in NT for the win98 machine to see it, but that was a while back and I can't find the same in WinXP?

Thx,

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Old 4th June 2003   #2
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Moved this to the networking section since I think it fits better here.

You should be connecting to the modem using a normal patch cable (pin1-pin1, pin2-pin2, etc.). As a general rule, unlike ethernet devices will use this cable pin-out.

But to connect like devices (two PCs in this case but also two hubs or whatever) a normal patch cable won't work. You need one usually known as a crossover cable where a transmit pin at one end is connected to a receive pin at the other. Usually just asking at a store for a crossover cable gets you what you need but for the technical minded, pins 1 & 2 are TX, pins 3 & 6 are RX. The wiring needs to be connectorA-connectorB, 1-3, 2-6, 3-1, 6-2. The other pins aren't used and can either be removed or connected.

And when you get ready to add a device to allow both to connect to the internet at once, get a router/switch combination rather than a hub. Cost is around $50 for a device that will work with cable/dsl modem and PCs connected to the switch by ethernet cards and patch cables.

Basically, you connect each PC to the switch side (using normal patch cables for unlike devices) which networks the two of them together
and either let the router's DHCP firmware set everything up for you or do some simple setup yourself.

The router connects to the modem and uses a thing called NAT (network address translation) to take the single ISP assigned IP address for itself and then to keep track of which PC did what activity on the internet and split the traffic so the right stuff goes to and from the right PC.

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Old 5th June 2003   #3
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Quote:
You should be connecting to the modem using a normal patch cable (pin1-pin1, pin2-pin2, etc.). As a general rule, unlike ethernet devices will use this cable pin-out.

But to connect like devices (two PCs in this case but also two hubs or whatever) a normal patch cable won't work.
er... I use an RJ-45 cable to connect to the modem and to connect the two PCs. It's always worked before (when I was connecting Win98 to Win98 AND Win2000 to Win98), why wouldn't it work now? Since I never had a router or hub, I simply connected the cable to the modem when wanting to surf, or between the two PCs' ethernet cards when wanting to 'Lan'. I'm pretty sure I've just not done something right in WinXp (i.e. something is missing in the LAN setup). Just not sure what. What is required in XP for the two PCs to recognize each other?

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I noticed that in "Network Connections" when I right click on my entry "Local Area Connection" under "LAN or high speed Internet" and choose the "Bridge Connections" option it gives me the error message
"To create a network bridge, you must select at least two network connections that are not being used by Internet Connection Sharing or Internet COnnection Firewall". I take it that's not what I want to do in my case, but there are so many options under Networking now, I can't help but think something needs to be switched on or off somewhere in the miasma.

I also see that under 'Status' on the same "Local Area Connection" line, it says "Network Cable unplugged" even though it is clearly connected and works if I connect to the modem, yet when I connect between the PCs it says it's unplugged. The lights don't go on on either NIC card too when connected together, yet DO go on when connected to the modem (DSL). Why does it not see the physical connection between them but DOES to the modem? Do I need another entry in "Network COnnections" to make the LAN work? This is baffling <sigh>.

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Old 5th June 2003   #5
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Quote:
I also see that under 'Status' on the same "Local Area Connection" line, it says "Network Cable unplugged" even though it is clearly connected and works if I connect to the modem, yet when I connect between the PCs it says it's unplugged. The lights don't go on on either NIC card too when connected together, yet DO go on when connected to the modem (DSL). Why does it not see the physical connection between them but DOES to the modem?
RJ-45 simply describes the plug design.

Compare the ends of your cable. See if the wire colors to the various locations are the same at both ends or different. If they are the same, you need another cable. If they are different then you have a speed/duplexing mismatch on the two NICs. If it worked before than that is a likely cause.

Go into the network connection and the physical settings for the network cards. There will be either one for speed and another for duplexing or a single one for both - differs with various NICs.

Set the cards both the same. And not "auto". Try 100Mbps full duplex first since that is the fastest. If it still fails (or if either card doesn't offer that option) then use the slowest of 10mbps half duplex and keep trying faster options until it fails again.

Slowest to fastest
10Mbps half duplex
10Mbps full duplex
100Mbps half duplex
100Mbps full duplex

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Old 6th June 2003   #6
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Tried all the different speeds, but still doesn't work. I've been told that I need a router for this cable to work (although why it used to work fine with Win2000 to Win98 baffles me).

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Old 7th June 2003   #7
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I still suggest you get a crossover cable and give it a try. Should be fairly cheap at under $10 for a 10ft from Radio Shack or any computer shop.

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Old 7th June 2003   #8
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Perhaps you have a cross-over cable and the reason your PCs can talk to the DSL modem is that the modem will auto-sense the connection, thereby using the cross-over cable correctly?

You say you can see the W98 machine from the WXP machine, but not vice-versa?

Actually, it would NOT be a bad idea to establish only one share on one system. This makes that one system act like a server and simplifies the location for transferred files.

A system not showing up in Network Neighborhood or equivalent does not mean that the system is not on the network and able to offer services. It means that the network browser is less than robust, which is so.

At a command prompt, issue command:

nbtstat -a 127.0.0.1

This will time out and report your established IP address while it is doing that. Write that down.

Issue command:

nbtstat -a *IP ADDRESS*

where *IPADDRESS* is the IP address that you wrote down.

This will return a "UNIQUE" entry and the name under the Name column is the netbios name for the computer. Write down this computer name.

Do this on both machines.

Ping each machine from the other. Use the IP address of the other machine. Do you get reply? If no, report that here. If yes, proceed.

Ping each machine from the other. Use the computer name of the other machine. Do you get reply? If no, report that here. If yes, proceed.

If yes, you can attempt to get to a share on the unseen machine by entering the UNC for the share in explorer. You will need to give everybody permissions to the shares, but it would be a better idea to establish a user account on each machine for the other machine and then give the user permissions. Make the passwords for each username be the same on both machines. If everybody has permissions, remove that entry.

Sometimes if you make appropriate LMHOSTS entries, you can get the machine to show up in Network Neighborhood. You would need fixed IP addresses to make this work.

I'm surprised that when you change machines, you do not need to power-cycle the DSL modem to flush the ARP cache.

A better solution for you would be to acquire a cheap router and let both machines talk to the Internet simultaneously and to each other continuously. This would also protect your shares when connected to the Internet using NAT and filters. If you acquire a router, get the CAT-5e patch cords (straight-through) that you need (3). This would be better for the health of your NICs and DSL modem that making and breaking the connections with a patch cord while they are powered.

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Old 7th June 2003   #9
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..And so answers begat more questions...


Quote:
Perhaps you have a cross-over cable and the reason your PCs can talk to the DSL modem is that the modem

will auto-sense the connection, thereby using the cross-over cable correctly?
I have an RJ-45. From what I've been told here, since the pins look identical on both ends I'm assuming that it ISN'T a crossover cable, but again, I've always used this cable before and it worked. Also, when I went to buy the cable nothing about a 'crossover' type being needed was mentioned. News to me, since I've always known a lan cable to be an 'RJ-45 twisted pair'.


Quote:
You say you can see the W98 machine from the WXP machine, but not vice-versa?
No. Neither computer can see the other, even the lights on each NIC card DON'T light up (although they do when individually connected to the modem at their respective times). This seems to imply that the cable is not working between them even thought it does to the modem (although AGAIN I don't get why it always worked before, and why now I would need a 'cross-over' cable). This same cable worked between Win98 and Win98; between Linux and Linux; between WinNT and Win98; AND between Win2000 and Win98. That's why my initial thought was that WinXP's networking is somehow not setup correctly.

To try to re-explain what I said before, hopefully less convoluted:
My WinXP machine is 'Stryder' and my win98 machine is 'Mike':
NOW,
when I look in 'My Network Places' (or Network Neighbourhood in Win98) the machine name shows up for specific one I'm on (i.e. On 'Mike' I see 'Mike' and can see which drives I shared BUT cannot see 'Stryder'; On 'Stryder' I see 'Stryder' and can see which drives I shared BUT cannot see 'Mike'. To me this means the sharing is ok, but the machines still don't see each other.

Also, if I type '\\stryder' on the Stryder machine (in 'RUN'), an explorer window opens showing me its shared directories, BUT '\\mike' says 'The network path was not found'. The same happens in reverse on the Mike machine (i.e. it sees itself, but not Stryder). Again this to me means that the sharing is correct and seems to imply that networking software-wise is correct (but that may be wrong?)

---

NOW! Having said THAT, here are the results from the suggestions you gave, making me think that perhaps something is still missing from either or both machines' setups:


Quote:
At a command prompt, issue command:
nbtstat -a 127.0.0.1
This will time out and report your established IP address while it is doing that. Write that down.
Just for fun (yippee!) I tried running the command on Stryder first, ONCE connected to the modem, THEN connected to the other machine:


RESULTS:

1) Connected to modem:
Local Area Connection:
Node IpAddress: [169.254.184.254] Scope Id: []
Host not found.
Sympatico:
Node IpAddress: [65.94.98.136] Scope Id: []
Host not found.

2) Connected to 'Mike':
Local Area Connection:
Node IpAddress: [0.0.0.0] Scope Id: []
Host not found.


It seems that only when I'm connected to the modem do I get an IP address assigned. SO, does that point to the cable again?
I tried pinging the computer name 'Stryder' when connected to the modem and get '169.254.184.254', BUT when I'm connected to to 'Mike' I get '127.0.0.1'.



Tried the same on the Mike machine (nbtstat -a 127.0.0.1):

RESULTS:

1) Connected to modem:
Host not found

2)Connected to 'Stryder':
Host not found


Not sure why the Win98 Mike machine doesn't see 127.0.0.1 in either case?


---
I was also wondering, that in 'Network connections' I have 2 entries. One for the LAN (under 'LAN or high-speed internet') and another for my ISP (under 'Broadband'). When I actually connect to the Net I get two icons in my tray. ODDLY, the 'Local Area connection' once says its speed is 10Mbps while the ISP connection is 100Mbps... what does that mean?


And regarding the 'Primary Network Logon' in 'Networking' in Win98. What should I be using: there are 3

types:
1-Client for Microsoft Networks
2-Microsoft Family Logon
3-Windows Logon

Right now I use the first. I don't see anything similar in WinXP.


---


I'm hoping that it is just the cable, since that's what seems to be consistent in the results, but I want to get a router soon anyway (so buying a new cable seems frivolous). My question now is, WILL the cable I have work on the router? I have three RJ-45 cables I've tried with the same results. Will the three work for me to get both computers connected to the internet and themselves once using a router?

You mentioned "CAT-5e patch cords (straight-through)". Is that the same as a RJ-45/twisted pair (i.e. will the ones I have work, or do I now need 3 new cables)?


thx,

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Old 7th June 2003   #10
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> QUESTION: I have an RJ-45.

It sounds like straight through. If that's the case and you have never used a hub or switch, then it seems unlikely that you ever got two systems to talk. Newt's correct--you need a cross-over cable. It sounds like you got one. Moving on...

> No. Neither computer can see the other,
> even the lights on each NIC card DON'T light up.

No lights, no connection. Usually, if you are using a straight-through RJ-45 cable (patch cable) to the modem, then you need to change it to the cross-over RJ-45 (different patch cable) when you put it between the two computers.

> although AGAIN I don't get why it always
> worked before, and why now I would
> need a 'cross-over' cable

Nobody here understands that either.

> This same cable worked between...

If it did and there was no hub, then it can be suspected that it is a cross-over cable.

It was not previously clear that you were seeing the local host for each machine when you looked at Network Neighborhood.

You have your network interface configured to talk to the ISP network and/or you are having the network interface get an IP address (use DHCP) when connecting through the modem.

When you connect between the two machines, there is no DHCP server to give out an IP address. When you do that, manually configure IP addresses and subnets and the two should talk.

I see you have more than one interface configured and one system gets an APIPA address.

Essentially, your two machines need an IP address from the same private IP address range and they need to be on the same subnet. Pick 192.168.1.2 and 192.168.1.3 and use 255.255.255.0 for a subnet mask.

---More than I can answer at the moment. I'll come back later or somebody else here can take it up.

Sounds like you have the cable--but your configuration isn't correct. There is enough information in this message so far to tell you what you need to do -- just not explicitly.

My suggestion that you get a router is a good one--it will prevent a lot of configuration headaches after you initially get it set up.

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Old 7th June 2003   #11
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Quote:
If it did and there was no hub, then it can be suspected that it is a cross-over cable.
Must be a cross-over then, because I definitely DID have that specific cable working, with the three different systems I described before, with no hub. Just from one nic to the other (using multi-boot). Worked fine for years.


Quote:
When you do that, manually configure IP addresses and subnets and the two should talk.
I tried that but still didn't seem to work, although I DO admit that I'm not exactly sure if I'm setting them right in WinXP (with Win98 I already know how).


What I see as the options for setting the IP addresses:

As I mentioned, I have two entries in 'Network Connections', one for the LAN and one for the Internet/ISP which work in tandem to connect to the internet. I'm wondering if I set the IP addresses in the former OR do I have to create a THIRD connection for the LAN (seems excessive, but again, I'm new to XP so...).

What I DID try was right-clicking on the 'Local Area Connection' entry I have already and selecting 'Properties', then in the 'General' tab, selecting the properties for 'Internet Protocol (TCP/IP)'.

Now here's where it was different from Win98.

ONE POSSIBILITY:
-*IF* 'Obtain an IP address automatically' is chosen then there is an extra 'Alternate Configuration' tab. Inside that you can choose 'Automatic private IP address' OR you can set the addresses yourself in 'User configured'. There are 7 different ones.

I'm assuming I only need the first two set as you suggested:
1-IP address (which I had set to 192.168.200.1, what I used to use)
2-Subnet mask (255.255.255.0)
The rest I left empty:
3-Default gateway
4-Preferred DNS server
5-Alternate DNS server
6-Preferred WINS server
7-Alternate WINS server

This didn't seem to help (btw, I had my WIN98 machine set to 192.168.200.2 with 255.255.255.0)


NOW, going back a tad:
OTHER POSSIBILITY:
-*IF* 'Obtain an IP address automatically' is NOT chosen, i.e. 'Use the following IP address' is chosen, then there is NO extra 'Alternate configuration' tab AND then you have to fill out 5 addresses:
1-IP address
2-Subnet mask
3-Default gateway
4-Preferred DNS server
5-Alternate DNS server

Now I'm wondering if this will work, if I set the specific addresses in #1 and #2, leave 3,4,5 empty, WILL my internet connection still work? Will the LAN? Will Chicken Little run by announcing the crashing of the heavens??

--

The fact that there are two ways to set up IP addresses, and that this version of windows is yet again set a different way than the previous ones, is confusing in itself.

Which of the above is the correct way?

A-Do I use a NEW LAN connection entry or the one that already exists?

B-In either case, do I use the first option I described with BOTH tabs? Or do I use the second option WITHOUT the extra 'Alternate configuration' tab?


It gets further confusing as there is and 'Advanced' button with several check boxes and radio buttons that I am leaving at the defaults <shrug>.

Ech.. with every new version of windows, everything I knew seems to fly out the window (so to speak)...

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Hi Mike

BitByter is correct, untill you get lights on these 2 NIC's all the ipconfigs etc in the world will not work! As you have no connection between the 2.

Possibly a bad cable or end.

I haven't followed this thread so have not read it all but here is the rules.

The general rule is like to like, use a crossover.
Devices are different use a stright thru cable.

Computer to computer directly, requires a crossover cable.

Computer to hub/switch/router combo normal jumper/patch cable, not crossover.

Hub/switch to router "normally requires crossover" but mfgs have now added autosensing to allow use of either a patch/jumper (stright )thru or crossover cable.

Additionally some of these may not have autosense but there will be a small slider switch to change between crossover or stright thru. If there is a switch then the side with the "X" means crossover.

Mike

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Old 8th June 2003   #13
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Quote:
BitByter is correct, untill you get lights on these 2 NIC's all the ipconfigs etc in the world will not work! As you have no connection between the 2.

Possibly a bad cable or end.

I haven't followed this thread so have not read it all but here is the rules.

The general rule is like to like, use a crossover.
Devices are different use a stright thru cable.

Computer to computer directly, requires a crossover cable.
Just to get you up to speed:

1-I don't get a light between the 2 nics BUT I do if I connect to a dsl modem, so it can't be the cable connections. And since both nic cards can connect to the modem individually and do light up, can't be them.

2-If it ISN'T a crossover then why did the exact same cable work before: I used it before going straight from NIC to NIC from win2000/winNT to win98 (I know because I set it up).

3-(there is no #3)

4-I won't know for sure until I get a router, but can't afford anything more right now (just upgraded). Just hope that it isn't something else all together (like the OS software setup, which I've tried a number of ways)

Will most likely post again when I get the router (wheneevr that may be).


thx,

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You don't need to give up. You may need to try to deterimine where the problems are and troubleshoot them one at a time. Now that you are waiting for money, you have plenty of time to learn about what to do.

For the moment, I think you need to take what happened BEFORE out of the loop.

So let's start with the physical connection and what you have.

It sounds like you have two patch cords. If you don't, then you probably need two patch cords, and they will be wired differently, one from the other. One will be known as "straight-through" and one (the other) will be known as "cross-over". They are used for different purposes, and if you need one rather than the other, then the other will not work.

Patch cords have an RJ-45 PLUG at each end. Plugs are "male." How the ends are wired will determine whether the patch cord is a straight-through patch cord or a cross-over patch cord. To confuse matters, there are two accepted methods of wiring patch cords. So let's unconfuse things.

You have a DSL modem with an RJ-45 jack. Jacks are "female." You have one computer with a NIC that has an RJ-45 jack. You have a second computer with a NIC that has an RJ-45 jack. Newt mentioned that there are like and unlike devices; keep that in mind because we will come back to that. Not all RJ-45 jacks are created equal. In the case of the RJ-45 jack, there are two sets of differences that may apply that are really factors of the same thing.

---------

There are two standard methods of wiring. These will be known as EIA/TIA 568A and EIA/TIA 568B, or in the parlance of these forums, "A" and "B" respectively. A CAT-5* patch cable will have 8 insulated wires in it which shall be called 4 pairs. The paired wires are easy to identify because color (or color with white line) will match to white with color (or white with color line.) The names of the colors will vary with culture, but we will assume that they are (or can be identified as) Brown-white/brn, Blue-white/blu, Green-white/grn, and Orange-white/org.

So go here and read.

A MAU, by the way, for ethernet discussions, is a Media Access Unit, not to be confused with Multi-station Access Unit. A MAU, for ethernet discussions, is a transceiver. For the moment, you can substitute NIC for MAU when reading the referenced page (with which I have no affiliation) above.

Now, you know that when you say you have an "RJ-45 cable" or actually, an RJ-45 patch cord, you leave us confused as to what it is that you have.

You can have an RJ-45 "A" straight-through patch cord, an RJ-45 "B" straight-through patch cord, or an RJ-45 cross-over patch cord. Your ability to identify what you have is important to the troubleshooting process.

Fortunately, RJ-45 plugs are generally clear and you can see what colored wires go to what pins. You determine this by holding the RJ-45 Plug so that the cable trails down from your hand. Then you make sure that the copper contacts are facing your eyeballs. In this orientation, the pins are numbered from left to right, 1 through 8. Pins 1 & 2 will be a pair, Pins 4 & 5 will be a pair, and Pins 7 & 8 will be a pair. Leaving Pins 3 & 6 to be the remaining pair.

The wiring will start with white/color on the left and will alternate with color moving to the right. Except for the blue-white/blu pair, for each pair, white/color is on the left and color is on the right. For the blue-white/blu pair, this is reversed. Pins 7 & 8 will always be white/brn and brown respectively. Pins 4 & 5 will always be blue and white/blu respectively. For "A" wiring, Pins 1 & 2 will be white/grn and green respectively. For "B" wiring, Pins 1 & 2 will be white/org and orange respectively. For "A" wiring, Pins 3 & 6 will be white/org and orange repspectively. For "B" wiring Pins 3 & 6 will be white/grn and green respectively.

Without getting into the history of failed standards, there is some amount of "A" wiring in the world and some amount of "B" wiring in the world. Depending on where in the world you are and how old your STUFF is, you could have one or the other. In general, "B" was around and then the standard was set. New wiring was supposed to be all "A", but people kept using "B". "A" was supposed to be the standard. Depending on your location, "B" became the standard.

You don't care. You don't care because you have no wall recepticles, no patch panels, no CPE distribution system.

If you have an "A" patch cord (wired "A" at both ends), it works for straight-through. If you have a "B" patch cord (wired "B" at both ends), it works for straight-through. A cross-over patch cord has a "B" plug on one end and an "A" plug on the other end.

Now, tell us what you have. One cord or two? Are they straight-through, cross-over, or one of each? If you don't have one of each, get one of each.

We'll stop here and wait for a response that just tells us about the patch cords.

*link fixed*


Last edited by Bitbyter; 8th June 2003 at 12:12.
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Old 8th June 2003   #15
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Join Date: Aug 2002
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Mike

BitByter is telling you right. I can tell he does this for a living as do I.

But to simplfly consider this:

When you connect each of these computers to the DSL and you get a light it means you have a connection.

When you connect the other cable computer to computer and you get no lights then you have no connection.

When are you going to Radio Shack or Walmart to get a new "CROSSOVER" cable to go between the 2 computers.

If it worked before it has gone bad, an end is loose or it has been crushed. Even if you had a crip kit to repair the line it takes experience to do it correctly even if you get the colors correct.

Your best choice!

NEW CROSSOVER CABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike

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